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<blockquote data-quote="squibbles" data-source="post: 8740426" data-attributes="member: 6937590"><p>Nice catch; I didn't realize that was the case.</p><p></p><p>If the target got advantage on attacks against the grappler, I was gonna write off the new grappling rules as a complete disaster--but this interaction makes sense.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Ya, from the PC perspective, this seems particularly bad. Monsters tend to have good saves but they almost never have proficiency in athletics or acrobatics. A PC really can't grapple reliably under these rules, since a high attack bonus and a high DC are both harder to get than a high athletics skill.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is a good point. The types of PCs that are good at grappling are really weird in 5e.</p><p></p><p></p><p>But it's not a no save auto grapple. Instead of being a contested ability check you initiate with one of your attacks, it's an unarmed strike attack roll--which is likely a fair bit harder for a PC to succeed at. As I stated above, monsters are almost never proficient in athletics or acrobatics; they are almost always using just their str mod, which never goes above +10 and only gets to +10 for the very toughest ones. Lots of monsters, though--even at low levels--have an AC of 18, 19, 20, or above.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, but the point of grappling isn't to just grapple and then sit in the grapple trading hits, it's to grapple, shove prone, and then drag the target someplace bad.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This, again, seems to make grapples significantly weaker. There is no tradeoff cost to break out of them, the target just needs to have a good str OR dex save.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Grappling under the new rules will have some uses, but they'll be situational. If you can reasonably expect to hit an enemy with an unarmed strike, if you think it's worthwhile to you to impose disadvantage on that enemy's attacks against creatures other than you for a round, or if you can get a lot from moving the enemy15-ish feet, grappling is worth it. </p><p></p><p>However, you will never have a grapple DC high enough that enemies will reliably fail their save, whereas you could easily achieve an athletics score high enough that enemies reliably lose the contested role. You basically can't build a grappling PC under the new rules.</p><p></p><p>Maybe this is intended--and grapples are supposed to be a sometimes-useful trick that warrior types can use when needed, which resembles other save-or-suck spells and features, but that it doesn't make any sense to build a character around.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="squibbles, post: 8740426, member: 6937590"] Nice catch; I didn't realize that was the case. If the target got advantage on attacks against the grappler, I was gonna write off the new grappling rules as a complete disaster--but this interaction makes sense. Ya, from the PC perspective, this seems particularly bad. Monsters tend to have good saves but they almost never have proficiency in athletics or acrobatics. A PC really can't grapple reliably under these rules, since a high attack bonus and a high DC are both harder to get than a high athletics skill. This is a good point. The types of PCs that are good at grappling are really weird in 5e. But it's not a no save auto grapple. Instead of being a contested ability check you initiate with one of your attacks, it's an unarmed strike attack roll--which is likely a fair bit harder for a PC to succeed at. As I stated above, monsters are almost never proficient in athletics or acrobatics; they are almost always using just their str mod, which never goes above +10 and only gets to +10 for the very toughest ones. Lots of monsters, though--even at low levels--have an AC of 18, 19, 20, or above. Right, but the point of grappling isn't to just grapple and then sit in the grapple trading hits, it's to grapple, shove prone, and then drag the target someplace bad. This, again, seems to make grapples significantly weaker. There is no tradeoff cost to break out of them, the target just needs to have a good str OR dex save. Grappling under the new rules will have some uses, but they'll be situational. If you can reasonably expect to hit an enemy with an unarmed strike, if you think it's worthwhile to you to impose disadvantage on that enemy's attacks against creatures other than you for a round, or if you can get a lot from moving the enemy15-ish feet, grappling is worth it. However, you will never have a grapple DC high enough that enemies will reliably fail their save, whereas you could easily achieve an athletics score high enough that enemies reliably lose the contested role. You basically can't build a grappling PC under the new rules. Maybe this is intended--and grapples are supposed to be a sometimes-useful trick that warrior types can use when needed, which resembles other save-or-suck spells and features, but that it doesn't make any sense to build a character around. [/QUOTE]
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