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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8740522" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Yeah, I was a bit stunned no one was calling this out, as it seemed like a massive problem. Rereading made it a lot better.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't follow. </p><p></p><p>Athletics is strength + prof. Strength attacks are strength + prof. The high save will be strength + prof + 8. Same as every caster if you are a strength based character. </p><p></p><p>I'm also not sure if saves are more common than skills or not. A quick search gave me about even numbers. It is a potential concern, but I like to think of it in terms of conservation of narrative. There are a lot of spells that are strength saves to break free from a grapple or restrain condition. </p><p></p><p>I can also see this as being fodder for a grappler feat.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>True, it does need to be a successful attack, but it is also something you decide after the attack hits, if you grapple, shove prone, or deal damage. But, the AC as Save is a good point.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which never happened, at least not that I ever saw. No one ever shoved prone. That took a full action instead of an attack before. Now, you can actually do all of this by 5th level, all you have to do is land the hits.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But, this also makes it matter for PCs who are grappled. Again, no one ever tried to break out of grapples. So it taking an action didn't matter, because no one bothered to take that action.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think this is setting up for more feats. Tavern Brawler already gives us a hint, by once per turn allowing damage and shove. I'd be willing to bet that the Grappler feat will interact in interesting ways with this condition, allowing for people to build around it. </p><p></p><p>But also, let's take a low level fighter with athletics. They likely have a +5 athletics. The monster probably has a +3 strength. The d20 roll for the opposed roll matters a LOT more than those modifiers. And I have seen very weak characters avoid grapples from dedicated grapplers, purely through the roll of the dice. I think the opposed roll made it very unreliable, where hitting a static number you are already trying to hit makes it more reliable. </p><p></p><p>After all, every single thing that increases the chance to land a hit? Invisible, bless, ect ect, now also increases your initial grapple chance. Which gives you at least one round. I'm also curious if they use this for things like the net or the whip, since it is now an "on a hit" effect.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8740522, member: 6801228"] Yeah, I was a bit stunned no one was calling this out, as it seemed like a massive problem. Rereading made it a lot better. I don't follow. Athletics is strength + prof. Strength attacks are strength + prof. The high save will be strength + prof + 8. Same as every caster if you are a strength based character. I'm also not sure if saves are more common than skills or not. A quick search gave me about even numbers. It is a potential concern, but I like to think of it in terms of conservation of narrative. There are a lot of spells that are strength saves to break free from a grapple or restrain condition. I can also see this as being fodder for a grappler feat. True, it does need to be a successful attack, but it is also something you decide after the attack hits, if you grapple, shove prone, or deal damage. But, the AC as Save is a good point. Which never happened, at least not that I ever saw. No one ever shoved prone. That took a full action instead of an attack before. Now, you can actually do all of this by 5th level, all you have to do is land the hits. But, this also makes it matter for PCs who are grappled. Again, no one ever tried to break out of grapples. So it taking an action didn't matter, because no one bothered to take that action. I think this is setting up for more feats. Tavern Brawler already gives us a hint, by once per turn allowing damage and shove. I'd be willing to bet that the Grappler feat will interact in interesting ways with this condition, allowing for people to build around it. But also, let's take a low level fighter with athletics. They likely have a +5 athletics. The monster probably has a +3 strength. The d20 roll for the opposed roll matters a LOT more than those modifiers. And I have seen very weak characters avoid grapples from dedicated grapplers, purely through the roll of the dice. I think the opposed roll made it very unreliable, where hitting a static number you are already trying to hit makes it more reliable. After all, every single thing that increases the chance to land a hit? Invisible, bless, ect ect, now also increases your initial grapple chance. Which gives you at least one round. I'm also curious if they use this for things like the net or the whip, since it is now an "on a hit" effect. [/QUOTE]
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