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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8743448" data-attributes="member: 18"><p>Have you, personally, ever honestly played multiple sessions of a game with a Rogue/Bard character who had Expertise in Athletics and used it to constantly grapple enemies? Yes/no will suffice.</p><p></p><p>Thank you! That's what I was saying. They're thus not "bollocks". There's a corner-case way to push them pretty far. There are corner-case ways to do that to a lot of things, though.</p><p></p><p>This is not a class-agnostic thing. Barbarians for example, were good at it, and should be good at it. It's right in their vibe, grabbing and dragging and wrestling - even more than Monks, I'd say. So if they change the rules for them to still be as good at it, great. But if they don't, that's rubbish. And I'm skeptical they will.</p><p></p><p>I agree and I think this is a major flaw with both Grapple and Shove as presented so far. The other major flaw with Shove is it is now "Get out of Grapple free", effectively, which doesn't really make sense. Like, if you can't break the grapple with a save, should you really just be able to insta-break it with a Shove? I think Shove shouldn't work on people grappling you.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 8743448, member: 18"] Have you, personally, ever honestly played multiple sessions of a game with a Rogue/Bard character who had Expertise in Athletics and used it to constantly grapple enemies? Yes/no will suffice. Thank you! That's what I was saying. They're thus not "bollocks". There's a corner-case way to push them pretty far. There are corner-case ways to do that to a lot of things, though. This is not a class-agnostic thing. Barbarians for example, were good at it, and should be good at it. It's right in their vibe, grabbing and dragging and wrestling - even more than Monks, I'd say. So if they change the rules for them to still be as good at it, great. But if they don't, that's rubbish. And I'm skeptical they will. I agree and I think this is a major flaw with both Grapple and Shove as presented so far. The other major flaw with Shove is it is now "Get out of Grapple free", effectively, which doesn't really make sense. Like, if you can't break the grapple with a save, should you really just be able to insta-break it with a Shove? I think Shove shouldn't work on people grappling you. [/QUOTE]
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