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One thing I hate about the Sorcerer
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9317187" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Yeah, no, I get that. I'm just approaching the conversation in a "where can I find common ground with you" angle. I get the Psion is a popular concept for many people, I have a favorite 3pp version of one. I just don't think they fit well in the game. I have just never fully gotten over the issue of how to make magic and psionics different. The closest I've come is making Psionic only come from the Far Realms, as a type of "different physics", that way it doesn't fit because it isn't MEANT to fit.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hmm... I think I'm going to cut and shuffle these to discuss them. I think that will show my thought process best.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I see the Alchemist inside the artificer from the way you have set this up. They are still using craft-ken and a professional field to accomplish magic. I think the current mechanical presentation of the Artificer Alchemist is garbage, but the placement of the concept is solid. </p><p></p><p>Seeing what you want from the machinist... I'm torn. On one hand, a "warrior of technology" reads to me like Iron Man or a Gunner, which if you are repairing and making your own gadgets... that's the Artificer. If it isn't that, and it is just a Gunner who can't really make guns, just use them... then they are a fighter. One key to that is that all weapons ARE technology, they just are not MODERN technology.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think your color analogy is very apt here. Again, you have made a line between the Assassin who knows how to stalk someone, but contrast it with the Rogue who knows how to see and not be seen. Those are the same skills to me. There is a difference, but just like a difference between Scarlet and Crimson, it is slight and not very noticeable unless they are side by side. Which is why I think a subclass works very well for them. They are just such close concepts, that making an Assassin Class would inevitably be making a variant Rogue Class. </p><p></p><p>And I see the same thing with the Warden and the Ranger/Barbarian or the Avenger and the Paladin/Barbarian. There are differences, but I'm not convinced those differences can be pulled out enough to make them feel unique. For example, Zeal is a type of passion, and absolute focus is an altered state of consciousness. I can slip that aesthetic around a Barbarian with ease (and have done so)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>See, and I run into a similar issue with the Invoker, that is just another flavor of the Cleric. You could build that easily by simply taking no healing or buffing spells for a cleric. These concepts I don't even see as different shades of the same idea, as you have said, the crook is a tool AND a weapon. the cleric is both concepts. We've just spent too long focusing only on the servant and healer aspects of the class, and not on the more relevant invoker concepts.</p><p></p><p>The shaman I think is more confusing to me now, because it seems like it would be the summoner? And, I agree a summoner of some sort would be a good archetype thematically, it has just been a long-standing mechanical problem to attempt to make a summoner. If we could find mechanics for it that worked, I'd be all for it, but the mechanics have always backfired.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9317187, member: 6801228"] Yeah, no, I get that. I'm just approaching the conversation in a "where can I find common ground with you" angle. I get the Psion is a popular concept for many people, I have a favorite 3pp version of one. I just don't think they fit well in the game. I have just never fully gotten over the issue of how to make magic and psionics different. The closest I've come is making Psionic only come from the Far Realms, as a type of "different physics", that way it doesn't fit because it isn't MEANT to fit. Hmm... I think I'm going to cut and shuffle these to discuss them. I think that will show my thought process best. I see the Alchemist inside the artificer from the way you have set this up. They are still using craft-ken and a professional field to accomplish magic. I think the current mechanical presentation of the Artificer Alchemist is garbage, but the placement of the concept is solid. Seeing what you want from the machinist... I'm torn. On one hand, a "warrior of technology" reads to me like Iron Man or a Gunner, which if you are repairing and making your own gadgets... that's the Artificer. If it isn't that, and it is just a Gunner who can't really make guns, just use them... then they are a fighter. One key to that is that all weapons ARE technology, they just are not MODERN technology. I think your color analogy is very apt here. Again, you have made a line between the Assassin who knows how to stalk someone, but contrast it with the Rogue who knows how to see and not be seen. Those are the same skills to me. There is a difference, but just like a difference between Scarlet and Crimson, it is slight and not very noticeable unless they are side by side. Which is why I think a subclass works very well for them. They are just such close concepts, that making an Assassin Class would inevitably be making a variant Rogue Class. And I see the same thing with the Warden and the Ranger/Barbarian or the Avenger and the Paladin/Barbarian. There are differences, but I'm not convinced those differences can be pulled out enough to make them feel unique. For example, Zeal is a type of passion, and absolute focus is an altered state of consciousness. I can slip that aesthetic around a Barbarian with ease (and have done so) See, and I run into a similar issue with the Invoker, that is just another flavor of the Cleric. You could build that easily by simply taking no healing or buffing spells for a cleric. These concepts I don't even see as different shades of the same idea, as you have said, the crook is a tool AND a weapon. the cleric is both concepts. We've just spent too long focusing only on the servant and healer aspects of the class, and not on the more relevant invoker concepts. The shaman I think is more confusing to me now, because it seems like it would be the summoner? And, I agree a summoner of some sort would be a good archetype thematically, it has just been a long-standing mechanical problem to attempt to make a summoner. If we could find mechanics for it that worked, I'd be all for it, but the mechanics have always backfired. [/QUOTE]
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