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Orc or Hobgoblin?
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<blockquote data-quote="GreenTengu" data-source="post: 6670149" data-attributes="member: 6777454"><p>I am interested in what players think are the fundamental differences physiologically between Orcs and Hobgoblins. They get different stats, but whenever one attempt to approach how they are different it usually comes to "Lawful" vs. "Chaotic" which doesn't make any sense since among the individual races, assuming they aren't all made as clones off an assembly line, you are going to have different alignments among individuals. You are going to have the odd Orc monk who is Lawful or the Hobgoblin AntiPaladin who is by definition Chaotic Evil. And that demonstrates that they don't transform into one another when they have a different alignment.</p><p></p><p>Then maybe it could talk about society and... well... sure. On a maco-scale Orcs tend to be used as depictions of all the negative ideas we have historically held about primitive tribes. They get various traits of African tribes and Native Americans and Gauls and Huns mixed in together while Hobgoblins tend to mimic the negative traits of various cultures that we like to attribute to foreigners-- often plenty of orientalism mixed in with their depiction. If in an old non-PC western movie, the Orcs would be the "Injins" and the Hobgoblins would be the Mexicans or possibly the Chinese or whomever the "foreigner" is who lacks those good traits attributed to the true, real, honest, red-blooded 'Mericans. If you are going to do a story where a ship crash lands on an island of cannibals, you turn those natives into Orcs. If you are going to follow the script of a WWII narrative then you turn the Nazis and/or Japanese into Hobgoblins... and if you are doing a Cold War story, they become the Russians.</p><p>But that only goes so far and only works on a collective scale if you use them as a united force rather than individuals. You can have both of them working for the same mercenary company, either one can be bounty hunters or pirates, either one can become a guard or a bandit and in those roles there is no longer such a clear and distinct difference.</p><p></p><p>Moreover, the races are often given very, very different attributes suggesting that they should be wildly and fundamentally physically quite different and distinct from one another.</p><p>Now, sometimes it is easy to tell the difference because Orcs get presented as emerald green while Hobgoblins get shown as crimson. But plenty more times it just isn't too terribly clear. Both get presented as having gray skin often enough making it all murkier. I gathered a set of pictures that I felt lay within this range and I am interested in how others view these pictures.</p><p></p><p>I labeled each one so. I would appreciate it if people could say which ones they think are Orcs (or Half-Orcs) and which ones they would label Hobgoblins (or Bugbears). I know that plenty of you might be familiar with these pictures and know the "right" answer, but maybe try to put that out of your mind if possible and having the pictures laid side-by-side based on your own personal criteria which one the picture should be regardless of how it was labeled in the book. I am not nearly as interested in the "right" answer as I am in trying to get a sense of how players separate one from the other based purely on appearance so that even when you use them in the same role, it makes sense to describe someone as one or the other.</p><p></p><p>And by all means feel free to explain what the criteria you used to decide was.</p><p></p><p></p><p>[ATTACH]69473[/ATTACH]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GreenTengu, post: 6670149, member: 6777454"] I am interested in what players think are the fundamental differences physiologically between Orcs and Hobgoblins. They get different stats, but whenever one attempt to approach how they are different it usually comes to "Lawful" vs. "Chaotic" which doesn't make any sense since among the individual races, assuming they aren't all made as clones off an assembly line, you are going to have different alignments among individuals. You are going to have the odd Orc monk who is Lawful or the Hobgoblin AntiPaladin who is by definition Chaotic Evil. And that demonstrates that they don't transform into one another when they have a different alignment. Then maybe it could talk about society and... well... sure. On a maco-scale Orcs tend to be used as depictions of all the negative ideas we have historically held about primitive tribes. They get various traits of African tribes and Native Americans and Gauls and Huns mixed in together while Hobgoblins tend to mimic the negative traits of various cultures that we like to attribute to foreigners-- often plenty of orientalism mixed in with their depiction. If in an old non-PC western movie, the Orcs would be the "Injins" and the Hobgoblins would be the Mexicans or possibly the Chinese or whomever the "foreigner" is who lacks those good traits attributed to the true, real, honest, red-blooded 'Mericans. If you are going to do a story where a ship crash lands on an island of cannibals, you turn those natives into Orcs. If you are going to follow the script of a WWII narrative then you turn the Nazis and/or Japanese into Hobgoblins... and if you are doing a Cold War story, they become the Russians. But that only goes so far and only works on a collective scale if you use them as a united force rather than individuals. You can have both of them working for the same mercenary company, either one can be bounty hunters or pirates, either one can become a guard or a bandit and in those roles there is no longer such a clear and distinct difference. Moreover, the races are often given very, very different attributes suggesting that they should be wildly and fundamentally physically quite different and distinct from one another. Now, sometimes it is easy to tell the difference because Orcs get presented as emerald green while Hobgoblins get shown as crimson. But plenty more times it just isn't too terribly clear. Both get presented as having gray skin often enough making it all murkier. I gathered a set of pictures that I felt lay within this range and I am interested in how others view these pictures. I labeled each one so. I would appreciate it if people could say which ones they think are Orcs (or Half-Orcs) and which ones they would label Hobgoblins (or Bugbears). I know that plenty of you might be familiar with these pictures and know the "right" answer, but maybe try to put that out of your mind if possible and having the pictures laid side-by-side based on your own personal criteria which one the picture should be regardless of how it was labeled in the book. I am not nearly as interested in the "right" answer as I am in trying to get a sense of how players separate one from the other based purely on appearance so that even when you use them in the same role, it makes sense to describe someone as one or the other. And by all means feel free to explain what the criteria you used to decide was. [ATTACH=CONFIG]69473._xfImport[/ATTACH] [/QUOTE]
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