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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5647330" data-attributes="member: 957"><p>Then please explain your prior point to which I posed this question. Because if you are saying enough people DID try it, then you prior point seems lacking.</p><p></p><p>I'm not talking about "giving it a shot". I gave it a shot, a ton of people "gave it a shot". I'm talking about being an on-going player that supports the system. And, no, I don't believe those other so-called overriding reasons will cause any meaningful number of people to play a game they don't like. (Though I find it highly entertaining that you are arguing that 4E is hurting because people have alternatives to being compelled to play a game they don't like.)</p><p></p><p>Remember, I pointed out that:</p><p> (A) GURPS, Warhammer, and Bad Axe's early versions of Trailblazer were options. Your suggestion that there are not alternatives is simply absurd. and </p><p>(B) I pointed out the 3E fans who don't play PF STILL don't play 4E. </p><p></p><p>You are not getting the point here.</p><p></p><p>First, lets just assume for the moment that in some alternate universe there is not a single person playing the game of their DM or groups preference despite their own. Now, let's come to another alternate universe in which 4E is clearly more popular than PF and people do sometimes play the game their group prefers. Because 4E is more popular a lot more groups are playing it. The frequency of people playing games they don't prefer will be fairly distributed across all groups so it will be much more common to find the stray PF find stuck playing 4E than a 4E player stuck in one of the less frequent PF games. And you can flip that in a universe with a more popular PF over 4E. The point is that IF you claim holds water, it will HELP the more popular game at the expense of the less popular game. </p><p></p><p>If 4E is more popular then you are claiming it is harmed by a result that in fact helps it.</p><p></p><p>If you are saying PF is more popular than 4E, then I agree with you.</p><p></p><p>I thought casual DMing was a strength of 4E.</p><p></p><p>You are tap dancing more than a bit here. Do "hardcore tabletop gamers" (overall) actually prefer PF to 4E? You haven't actually said *that*. But the implication is there and your point falls apart if it isn't.</p><p></p><p>And, for the record, I agree with you. In particular I've noticed that of the people I'd considered "really good" DMs before I ever heard of 4E, roughly 90-95% have NOT switched to 4E and the rest play both. That isn't the same group as "hard core gamers", and I don't think that group is AS skewed, but it isn't far behind. As you said "overwhelmingly" is a good word.</p><p></p><p>But, the flip side doesn't apply. I won't claim that PF is "overwhelming" amongst causal players. But I've seen no evidence that 4E has any lion's share there either. I'd tag casual as a wash and hard core as big win PF.</p><p></p><p>I agree that there is a difference. And there probably is a huge number of PF fans who, like me, don't actively dislike 4E. But, there is also a HUGE number who really do "DISLIKE" 4E. You can't get around that.</p><p></p><p>You are still ignoring GURPS, Warhammer, Hero, etc... You are even ignoring NOT playing.</p><p></p><p>And the flip side of your argument remains: If 4E has attracted throngs of fans there would not have been a foundation begging for a PF to happen. The market was there.</p><p></p><p>Now you are just talking is circles. You flat out said that without Pathfinder people would switch to 4E. Need for support is NOT the controlling factor for these non-PF players. Go ask them. They don't like PF. They are a perfectly valid control group. Declaring the ENTIRE group invalid without any basis is CLASSIC sour grapes. </p><p></p><p>If you can agree that this ENTIRE group isn't swayed by the lack of support then you have no basis to claim that any meaningful group of the PF fans would be any different.</p><p>I'm sure you have. I made no claim that no one has switched from 3.5 to 4E in the past two years. I know of some. a LOT of people have turned away from 4E in the past two years. The NET change is exactly as I describe it.</p><p></p><p>HEH</p><p></p><p>So you are brushing off the ENTIRE RPG industry now?</p><p></p><p>Ok. I guess your position forces you into that corner.</p><p></p><p>Look at what you actually wrote and you will see I gave a fair interpretation of the words. If you say you didn't mean it that way I accept that. God knows I've posted things that didn't come out right at all.</p><p></p><p>But, again, BEFORE PF was announced there was a major chuck of audience looking for something other than 4E. Calling it simple comfort fails to read the market correctly. It was not "I'm happy here", it was "I don't have interest in going THERE". The "edition wars" significantly predate PF.</p><p></p><p>Well yeah, they played the game that was more like the game they wanted to play. If 4E had *been* that game they wanted to play things would be completely different.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You are whitewashing. Even just sticking in the "2nd-favorite" is a major faulty presumption. </p><p></p><p>You are way undercounting the active dislike population.</p><p>And on top of that you are rounding the differences in preference far to charitably. Even after the dislike crowd there are so many people out there for whom there are four or five better options that the chances of a whole group agreeing "yeah, lets spend time playing our 6th favorite game" is nil.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You call me absolute, but you are the one dismissing the entire industry. That is just silly. </p><p></p><p>And even if you focus on casual gamers, if you are counting on casual players who don't care as you fan base, you don't have much to work with. </p><p>And casual players may be more than happy to play 2nd favorite, but they will still prefer 1st favorite.</p><p></p><p>If 4E had been 1st favorite for a hell of a lot more people, ever bit of this would have never happened in the first place. </p><p></p><p>Your argument is built around casual fans playing their second favorite game. That speaks volumes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 5647330, member: 957"] Then please explain your prior point to which I posed this question. Because if you are saying enough people DID try it, then you prior point seems lacking. I'm not talking about "giving it a shot". I gave it a shot, a ton of people "gave it a shot". I'm talking about being an on-going player that supports the system. And, no, I don't believe those other so-called overriding reasons will cause any meaningful number of people to play a game they don't like. (Though I find it highly entertaining that you are arguing that 4E is hurting because people have alternatives to being compelled to play a game they don't like.) Remember, I pointed out that: (A) GURPS, Warhammer, and Bad Axe's early versions of Trailblazer were options. Your suggestion that there are not alternatives is simply absurd. and (B) I pointed out the 3E fans who don't play PF STILL don't play 4E. You are not getting the point here. First, lets just assume for the moment that in some alternate universe there is not a single person playing the game of their DM or groups preference despite their own. Now, let's come to another alternate universe in which 4E is clearly more popular than PF and people do sometimes play the game their group prefers. Because 4E is more popular a lot more groups are playing it. The frequency of people playing games they don't prefer will be fairly distributed across all groups so it will be much more common to find the stray PF find stuck playing 4E than a 4E player stuck in one of the less frequent PF games. And you can flip that in a universe with a more popular PF over 4E. The point is that IF you claim holds water, it will HELP the more popular game at the expense of the less popular game. If 4E is more popular then you are claiming it is harmed by a result that in fact helps it. If you are saying PF is more popular than 4E, then I agree with you. I thought casual DMing was a strength of 4E. You are tap dancing more than a bit here. Do "hardcore tabletop gamers" (overall) actually prefer PF to 4E? You haven't actually said *that*. But the implication is there and your point falls apart if it isn't. And, for the record, I agree with you. In particular I've noticed that of the people I'd considered "really good" DMs before I ever heard of 4E, roughly 90-95% have NOT switched to 4E and the rest play both. That isn't the same group as "hard core gamers", and I don't think that group is AS skewed, but it isn't far behind. As you said "overwhelmingly" is a good word. But, the flip side doesn't apply. I won't claim that PF is "overwhelming" amongst causal players. But I've seen no evidence that 4E has any lion's share there either. I'd tag casual as a wash and hard core as big win PF. I agree that there is a difference. And there probably is a huge number of PF fans who, like me, don't actively dislike 4E. But, there is also a HUGE number who really do "DISLIKE" 4E. You can't get around that. You are still ignoring GURPS, Warhammer, Hero, etc... You are even ignoring NOT playing. And the flip side of your argument remains: If 4E has attracted throngs of fans there would not have been a foundation begging for a PF to happen. The market was there. Now you are just talking is circles. You flat out said that without Pathfinder people would switch to 4E. Need for support is NOT the controlling factor for these non-PF players. Go ask them. They don't like PF. They are a perfectly valid control group. Declaring the ENTIRE group invalid without any basis is CLASSIC sour grapes. If you can agree that this ENTIRE group isn't swayed by the lack of support then you have no basis to claim that any meaningful group of the PF fans would be any different. I'm sure you have. I made no claim that no one has switched from 3.5 to 4E in the past two years. I know of some. a LOT of people have turned away from 4E in the past two years. The NET change is exactly as I describe it. HEH So you are brushing off the ENTIRE RPG industry now? Ok. I guess your position forces you into that corner. Look at what you actually wrote and you will see I gave a fair interpretation of the words. If you say you didn't mean it that way I accept that. God knows I've posted things that didn't come out right at all. But, again, BEFORE PF was announced there was a major chuck of audience looking for something other than 4E. Calling it simple comfort fails to read the market correctly. It was not "I'm happy here", it was "I don't have interest in going THERE". The "edition wars" significantly predate PF. Well yeah, they played the game that was more like the game they wanted to play. If 4E had *been* that game they wanted to play things would be completely different. You are whitewashing. Even just sticking in the "2nd-favorite" is a major faulty presumption. You are way undercounting the active dislike population. And on top of that you are rounding the differences in preference far to charitably. Even after the dislike crowd there are so many people out there for whom there are four or five better options that the chances of a whole group agreeing "yeah, lets spend time playing our 6th favorite game" is nil. You call me absolute, but you are the one dismissing the entire industry. That is just silly. And even if you focus on casual gamers, if you are counting on casual players who don't care as you fan base, you don't have much to work with. And casual players may be more than happy to play 2nd favorite, but they will still prefer 1st favorite. If 4E had been 1st favorite for a hell of a lot more people, ever bit of this would have never happened in the first place. Your argument is built around casual fans playing their second favorite game. That speaks volumes. [/QUOTE]
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