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Paladin behavior question
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<blockquote data-quote="steeldragons" data-source="post: 6686451" data-attributes="member: 92511"><p>They should not have been in the position of coming back to find her in any way...she should have been dead in the first place and/or no deal made so they would have had no reason to go back. Is what mandatory? Killing her because she's an evil half-ogre wizardess with a bunch of ogres doing her bidding/at her disposal? I would say so. </p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p>Easy. Don't have dealings with them either. You can't cut them down in the street because some evil noble goes by in a carriage or an evil merchant is conducting their business...Lawful [for most player race societies, I'd wager] AND Good says you can't go around killing people for no reason...You have to be Lawful and Good. Nobody said being a paladin was easy. It's not/never was supposed to be.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because there's some evil member of the pantheon, who says they've made deals with them...or had any part or say in their creation? How 'bout divine beings recognize the existence of Evil as a part of creation (whether they fight against it or not) and the existence of deities that handle/control/further those evils are either a) necessary to the balance of the universe or b) to be fought/destroyed...but they just can't/don't have the power as much as they'd like to...or there's some cosmic law against it or the rules are just different for Gods than mortals...or...or...or...</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure what the point of this statement is.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not suggesting anything of the kind. This isn't some evil merchant going about his day to day...this is a half-ogress villain with (we are given to understand) a known history of wicked acts and a future intention for further evil...following this year and a day of [let's call it] "truce" deal. Even as a source of obvious evil, YOU [the paladin] can't strike her down while she's helpless/tied up...I am certain there were other PCs who would not have such qualms...and, really, you should have stopped them too.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You are the paladin. You are the shining example of how others (and the world) SHOULD behave (as dictated by your deity). Abiding by your principles is WHAT YOU DO as much as, if not more than, swinging a sword at evil! It is what makes you a paladin and not just another guy with a sword fighting evil. What is expedient doesn't matter. What is convenient or easy doesn't matter. What is RIGHT (as defined by your god's dogma/codes of conduct) matters!</p><p></p><p>SIMULTANEOUSLY, that doesn't mean what is "right" in a given situation/set of circumstances is automatically the same across the board (that's really for the Lawful Neutral <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> ). The "What about the evil law-abiding merchant?" should be the same as "What about the evil ogress we made a deal with?" argument is the typical reductio ad absurdum that leads to "Lawful Stupid" and used for decades to justify non-lawful paladins.</p><p></p><p>In what way is "abiding by their principles" leading to "failure" in this case? They are failing because they are NOT abiding by their principles. Abiding by their principles would have been a) NOT making deal with an creature you know to be evil and b) not slaying a bound/helpless captive.</p><p></p><p>BOTH of those things were not abiding by [fairly basically understood in most worlds, I would think] guidelines of their principles. In fairness, players who want to be paladins in my games are given firm guidelines and understand the risks and that they are incredibly rare in the world, in general. We do not know what the case is in this particular game and, as I have said in both of my posts,<em> my</em> rulings would be how it applies<em> to my table.</em></p><p></p><p>The argument, "I can justify my Paladin's actions [any way I want] with this little bit of mental gymnastics" will never fly at my table and if you want it to, then don't come to my table. It's that simple. My players know it. They don't mind. I will note, that though paladin characters have been few and far between over the years, I've never actually had one "fall." </p><p></p><p>[*sigh* I adore paladin threads. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /> ]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="steeldragons, post: 6686451, member: 92511"] They should not have been in the position of coming back to find her in any way...she should have been dead in the first place and/or no deal made so they would have had no reason to go back. Is what mandatory? Killing her because she's an evil half-ogre wizardess with a bunch of ogres doing her bidding/at her disposal? I would say so. Easy. Don't have dealings with them either. You can't cut them down in the street because some evil noble goes by in a carriage or an evil merchant is conducting their business...Lawful [for most player race societies, I'd wager] AND Good says you can't go around killing people for no reason...You have to be Lawful and Good. Nobody said being a paladin was easy. It's not/never was supposed to be. Because there's some evil member of the pantheon, who says they've made deals with them...or had any part or say in their creation? How 'bout divine beings recognize the existence of Evil as a part of creation (whether they fight against it or not) and the existence of deities that handle/control/further those evils are either a) necessary to the balance of the universe or b) to be fought/destroyed...but they just can't/don't have the power as much as they'd like to...or there's some cosmic law against it or the rules are just different for Gods than mortals...or...or...or... I'm not sure what the point of this statement is. I'm not suggesting anything of the kind. This isn't some evil merchant going about his day to day...this is a half-ogress villain with (we are given to understand) a known history of wicked acts and a future intention for further evil...following this year and a day of [let's call it] "truce" deal. Even as a source of obvious evil, YOU [the paladin] can't strike her down while she's helpless/tied up...I am certain there were other PCs who would not have such qualms...and, really, you should have stopped them too. You are the paladin. You are the shining example of how others (and the world) SHOULD behave (as dictated by your deity). Abiding by your principles is WHAT YOU DO as much as, if not more than, swinging a sword at evil! It is what makes you a paladin and not just another guy with a sword fighting evil. What is expedient doesn't matter. What is convenient or easy doesn't matter. What is RIGHT (as defined by your god's dogma/codes of conduct) matters! SIMULTANEOUSLY, that doesn't mean what is "right" in a given situation/set of circumstances is automatically the same across the board (that's really for the Lawful Neutral ;) ). The "What about the evil law-abiding merchant?" should be the same as "What about the evil ogress we made a deal with?" argument is the typical reductio ad absurdum that leads to "Lawful Stupid" and used for decades to justify non-lawful paladins. In what way is "abiding by their principles" leading to "failure" in this case? They are failing because they are NOT abiding by their principles. Abiding by their principles would have been a) NOT making deal with an creature you know to be evil and b) not slaying a bound/helpless captive. BOTH of those things were not abiding by [fairly basically understood in most worlds, I would think] guidelines of their principles. In fairness, players who want to be paladins in my games are given firm guidelines and understand the risks and that they are incredibly rare in the world, in general. We do not know what the case is in this particular game and, as I have said in both of my posts,[I] my[/I] rulings would be how it applies[I] to my table.[/I] The argument, "I can justify my Paladin's actions [any way I want] with this little bit of mental gymnastics" will never fly at my table and if you want it to, then don't come to my table. It's that simple. My players know it. They don't mind. I will note, that though paladin characters have been few and far between over the years, I've never actually had one "fall." [*sigh* I adore paladin threads. :p ] [/QUOTE]
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