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Paladin: Why Are They Often Considered Highly Powerful?
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<blockquote data-quote="werecorpse" data-source="post: 7447669" data-attributes="member: 55491"><p>I disagree Ancalagon that it's purely a "pace if game issue" though that is an important factor. </p><p></p><p>The Paladins combat defence up to 5th matches the fighter and both are weaker than a raging barbarian. Both compensate by getting a bit of healing capacity. Then the auras start over the next few levels and that provide superior defence to the fighter and probably the barbarian.</p><p></p><p>Their offence is defined by their nova smite ability which is a phenomenally potent ability.</p><p></p><p>So they end up being much better offensively and much better defensively than their peer classes.</p><p></p><p>I come from a 1e background played 3/3.5 & pathfinder and then 5e. My recollection of Paladins iconic ability was lay on hands 2hp/level and +2 to all saves. They also got some cleric spells but that was small beer. The LoH being able to be spread out as needed was the main schtick. They were viewed as the most powerful melee character class but they needed extra xp to level up. However the improvements over fighters were comparatively minimal. Smite first appeared iirc in 3e as a 1/day maybe a couple more during level up. Then as feats appeared over the life of 3.5 smite got stronger. When Pathfinder was designed I felt that perhaps the Paladin lobby group got hold of things during the open Playtest and design and they came out of that as real min max monsters.</p><p></p><p> But in 5e it feels like smiting is their iconic ability. Lay on Hands, despite a power up to 5/level and the ability to do some lesser restoration stuff is now a second rate ability. In jgsugfens example above he doesn't even mention that the paladin is immune to a whole lot of stuff and can heal 60 hit points as an action.</p><p></p><p>I wonder if going further than the suggestion of allowing 1 smite per round to only allowing 1 per short rest?</p><p></p><p>Inspired by Ancalagons comment I've been looking at another old thread on dealing with the short rest/long rest dichotomy issue. It is an area that can help the issue but I don't think solves it. </p><p></p><p>Even if you say the 6th+ level paladin has used up all of their daily powers and doesn't rest they then end up a slightly below par fighter but with some auras. Compared to the full powered battlemaster fighter the battlemaster fighter has 4 dice of superiority, an action surge and a second wind. The battle master fighter is stronger against non magical foes because the paladin defences are largely useless, but probably not against spell casters. And that's comparing it to a paladin without any of its daily powers left.</p><p></p><p>Even forgetting smite - their now most fearsome ability. Each 5 points of lay on hands (that can be specifically managed so could for example be used to give 1hp to an unconscious person 5 times) that can also cure poison or disease. This ability is about equivalent to a 1st level spell. So by 5th level they not only have 4 first and 2 second level spells but another 6 first, plus a channel divinity.</p><p></p><p>Looking at similar abilities or level abilities for any other non spellcaster class just reinforces this issue. At 6th level when a paladin gets its Cha bonus to saves an open hand monk gets to heal 3hp a level self only...so a much weaker version of the first level paladin ability to lay on hands? At 7th when having already got the save aura they get an aura that might make then immune to charm a hunter ranger might gets to have advantage on fear saves. </p><p></p><p>How does it actually work in game? Well some players may play Paladins as selfless helping the party and not taking the spotlight but they can just be the frontline fighter in heavy armour with good saves swinging their sword, supplement their hit points with that sweet lay on hands boost, save most spells and then when the boss fight arrives go nova and out damage the other fighters by a significant margin. </p><p></p><p>I have a paladin in a long running slow exp campaign that is about to reach 6th level. He is played by someone who likes to maximise his characters abilities (not a criticism!) so I want to make sure he can play his character without making the fighter, barbarian and melee rogue feel second rate. I can up the rate of short rests that will help the fighter but that doesn't help the barbarian or the rogue.</p><p></p><p>I necro ed the thread because people have likely had more play since last time it lived and enworld often has some good thoughts on game balance issues</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="werecorpse, post: 7447669, member: 55491"] I disagree Ancalagon that it's purely a "pace if game issue" though that is an important factor. The Paladins combat defence up to 5th matches the fighter and both are weaker than a raging barbarian. Both compensate by getting a bit of healing capacity. Then the auras start over the next few levels and that provide superior defence to the fighter and probably the barbarian. Their offence is defined by their nova smite ability which is a phenomenally potent ability. So they end up being much better offensively and much better defensively than their peer classes. I come from a 1e background played 3/3.5 & pathfinder and then 5e. My recollection of Paladins iconic ability was lay on hands 2hp/level and +2 to all saves. They also got some cleric spells but that was small beer. The LoH being able to be spread out as needed was the main schtick. They were viewed as the most powerful melee character class but they needed extra xp to level up. However the improvements over fighters were comparatively minimal. Smite first appeared iirc in 3e as a 1/day maybe a couple more during level up. Then as feats appeared over the life of 3.5 smite got stronger. When Pathfinder was designed I felt that perhaps the Paladin lobby group got hold of things during the open Playtest and design and they came out of that as real min max monsters. But in 5e it feels like smiting is their iconic ability. Lay on Hands, despite a power up to 5/level and the ability to do some lesser restoration stuff is now a second rate ability. In jgsugfens example above he doesn't even mention that the paladin is immune to a whole lot of stuff and can heal 60 hit points as an action. I wonder if going further than the suggestion of allowing 1 smite per round to only allowing 1 per short rest? Inspired by Ancalagons comment I've been looking at another old thread on dealing with the short rest/long rest dichotomy issue. It is an area that can help the issue but I don't think solves it. Even if you say the 6th+ level paladin has used up all of their daily powers and doesn't rest they then end up a slightly below par fighter but with some auras. Compared to the full powered battlemaster fighter the battlemaster fighter has 4 dice of superiority, an action surge and a second wind. The battle master fighter is stronger against non magical foes because the paladin defences are largely useless, but probably not against spell casters. And that's comparing it to a paladin without any of its daily powers left. Even forgetting smite - their now most fearsome ability. Each 5 points of lay on hands (that can be specifically managed so could for example be used to give 1hp to an unconscious person 5 times) that can also cure poison or disease. This ability is about equivalent to a 1st level spell. So by 5th level they not only have 4 first and 2 second level spells but another 6 first, plus a channel divinity. Looking at similar abilities or level abilities for any other non spellcaster class just reinforces this issue. At 6th level when a paladin gets its Cha bonus to saves an open hand monk gets to heal 3hp a level self only...so a much weaker version of the first level paladin ability to lay on hands? At 7th when having already got the save aura they get an aura that might make then immune to charm a hunter ranger might gets to have advantage on fear saves. How does it actually work in game? Well some players may play Paladins as selfless helping the party and not taking the spotlight but they can just be the frontline fighter in heavy armour with good saves swinging their sword, supplement their hit points with that sweet lay on hands boost, save most spells and then when the boss fight arrives go nova and out damage the other fighters by a significant margin. I have a paladin in a long running slow exp campaign that is about to reach 6th level. He is played by someone who likes to maximise his characters abilities (not a criticism!) so I want to make sure he can play his character without making the fighter, barbarian and melee rogue feel second rate. I can up the rate of short rests that will help the fighter but that doesn't help the barbarian or the rogue. I necro ed the thread because people have likely had more play since last time it lived and enworld often has some good thoughts on game balance issues [/QUOTE]
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