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Paladin will slice the cleric, or will the cleric bash the paladin?
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<blockquote data-quote="LokiDR" data-source="post: 923694" data-attributes="member: 6239"><p><strong>Re: Re: Paladin will slice the cleric, or will the cleric bash the paladin?</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok, lets debate what "well-designed" means. Putting a low stat in wisdom on a cleric is not well designed. Putting a low stat in strength for a paladin likewise is not good design.</p><p></p><p>Well designed seems to be mean fitting their role well. How else do you account for a cleric who focuses on stealth? If every cleric concept beside combat is not "well designed" I think it is you who are mis-interpreting "well designed".</p><p></p><p>This, by the way, is a debate. Interpreting information is part of debate. It is not "cheating" as you put it. I am start to feel like I should take this personally.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I say the cleric can be anything he wants to, where the paladin only really shines as a holy warrior. Are you saying this isn't true?</p><p></p><p>The core rules were the most playtested component of D&D, and can be seen as a whole. The class books, and especially 3rd party materials, can not be evaluated against every other rule. The core rules are the rules that every D&D 3e game includes, so it seems the best for compareson. You can not say the same about R&R.</p><p></p><p>I just looked up your favorite word, disingenuous. "Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating" or "Pretending to be unaware or unsophisticated".</p><p></p><p>I think have been very straightforward, and I can tell you I have not ignored factors or pretended I didn't know about them. You, however, have.</p><p></p><p>You have ignored or minmalized every clerical concept other than combat style clerics. You have minimized published material, the iconics. You imply that the core rules are not balanced, as they have a good feat chain for paladins. I think you are being <strong>disingenuous</strong>.</p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I said use published characters of the same level, free from our biases. The fact that you can build a better cleric than a paladin isn't relevant. The fact that a cleric can be min-maxed more than a paladin isn't relevant either.</p><p></p><p>Unless you want to explore every concept of paladin and cleric, we need some common reference. I am trying to evaluate the set of all paladins and the set of all clerics by looking at a sample. We can examine a different sample that is free of our bias, as I have often said. Or we can look at hundreds and hundreds of clerics and paladins and look for trends.</p><p></p><p>Personally, I would have thought that any cleric of any level would have trounced a paladin of the same level. The math doesn't support this. Hence I changed my opinion.</p><p></p><p>My same conclusions still hold: a cleric is more effective and more useful in most situations. Unless the cleric focuses on combat, the paladin should be more effective in combat. In the general case, the paladin has a good chance of winning a combat between the two, but it is not clear cut.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="LokiDR, post: 923694, member: 6239"] [b]Re: Re: Paladin will slice the cleric, or will the cleric bash the paladin?[/b] Ok, lets debate what "well-designed" means. Putting a low stat in wisdom on a cleric is not well designed. Putting a low stat in strength for a paladin likewise is not good design. Well designed seems to be mean fitting their role well. How else do you account for a cleric who focuses on stealth? If every cleric concept beside combat is not "well designed" I think it is you who are mis-interpreting "well designed". This, by the way, is a debate. Interpreting information is part of debate. It is not "cheating" as you put it. I am start to feel like I should take this personally. I say the cleric can be anything he wants to, where the paladin only really shines as a holy warrior. Are you saying this isn't true? The core rules were the most playtested component of D&D, and can be seen as a whole. The class books, and especially 3rd party materials, can not be evaluated against every other rule. The core rules are the rules that every D&D 3e game includes, so it seems the best for compareson. You can not say the same about R&R. I just looked up your favorite word, disingenuous. "Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating" or "Pretending to be unaware or unsophisticated". I think have been very straightforward, and I can tell you I have not ignored factors or pretended I didn't know about them. You, however, have. You have ignored or minmalized every clerical concept other than combat style clerics. You have minimized published material, the iconics. You imply that the core rules are not balanced, as they have a good feat chain for paladins. I think you are being [B]disingenuous[/B]. No, I said use published characters of the same level, free from our biases. The fact that you can build a better cleric than a paladin isn't relevant. The fact that a cleric can be min-maxed more than a paladin isn't relevant either. Unless you want to explore every concept of paladin and cleric, we need some common reference. I am trying to evaluate the set of all paladins and the set of all clerics by looking at a sample. We can examine a different sample that is free of our bias, as I have often said. Or we can look at hundreds and hundreds of clerics and paladins and look for trends. Personally, I would have thought that any cleric of any level would have trounced a paladin of the same level. The math doesn't support this. Hence I changed my opinion. My same conclusions still hold: a cleric is more effective and more useful in most situations. Unless the cleric focuses on combat, the paladin should be more effective in combat. In the general case, the paladin has a good chance of winning a combat between the two, but it is not clear cut. [/QUOTE]
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Paladin will slice the cleric, or will the cleric bash the paladin?
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