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Party Motivations in Books 7-9: Why do they fight?
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<blockquote data-quote="arkwright" data-source="post: 7537513" data-attributes="member: 6925177"><p>Andrew, Ranger, I appreciate your thoughts- yet per the books, you're wrong on a few points.</p><p></p><p><strong>Book 7</strong></p><p></p><p>-I appreciate that the party could just join the Ob- but that would require significant alterations and DIY to books 8 and 9 so we'd like to avoid that if at all possible. Same for any assault-Axis-Island shenanigans.</p><p></p><p>-The Ob are indeed evil. It's just that their plan is both utopian and inevitable; so that would seem to make it more difficult for the party to want to oppose them.</p><p></p><p>-Is interplanar invasion in and of itself worth opposing a utopian reconfig? My players don't think so. Plus, in the end, it doesn't really matter- in the Gyre, having Apet and Nem is likely no protection.</p><p></p><p>-They might not have the right but if it's both inevitable and utopian, how much struggle is it worth?</p><p></p><p>-Trusting them not to mess it up is just more cause to join with them, though.</p><p></p><p><strong>Book 8</strong></p><p></p><p>-Yet Kasvarina doesn't show up in book 8. I suppose I could pretend she was going to show up, though that seems a little weak.</p><p></p><p>-Insight and history is valuable, but it's not the objective of the main mission- 'stop the Ob'.</p><p></p><p>-Breaking their divination protection doesn't seem as valuble after they've seen all Ob officers at the convocation. Plus my players are easily hitting the DC to break through.</p><p></p><p>-Loot is an alright reward. I just suspect it will feel paltry if the party starts the book with 'your mission is X!' and then even though they succeed, they fail to accomplish X.</p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Book 9</strong></p><p></p><p>-He is a traitor, yet if you look closer at the lighthouse and realize its function, all he's doing is stabilizing and protecting Risur. He's not involved in Romana's plan to kill the king. He might be deceiving the Risuri military, but that might even be heroic when the alternative is sitting quiet in a basement and letting the city be damaged by the reconfig.</p><p></p><p>-Yet here's the thing- the Ob ritual does *not* smooth the control of the Ob over other nations, or at least not immediately and enormously. The book 10 newspaper articles are clear- all nations (except Danor) are very much still independent and indifferent to the Ob. Shantus slaps down some Ob coups, Drakr is mired in nihilistic eschatology. Thus there is no real 'penalty' for if Stanfield wins.</p><p></p><p>-You say the PCs shouldn't be fully aware of the Axis Seal Ritual, but per what the book specifically says they should learn at Schism, they know *everything*- that Borne is required, that there's a great seal of gold, that the lighthouses are a stabilizing influence. All they don't know is the icons and the location- and even then, the book expects canny players to figure it out. I genuinely don't see how a party can be hoodwinked into thinking Stanfield is running the main ritual when there isn't a three-hundred-foot colossus helping him.</p><p></p><p><strong>Ranger</strong></p><p></p><p>-I am grateful you put in a 'PCs join the Ob' track. Though part of my 'why should the party fight the Ob' extends to Risur- 'why should Risur fight the party if they join the Ob'.</p><p></p><p>-I do think book 8 will do a good ob at fully introducing the party to Nic, and realizing just how much of a dick he is. I just worry it might not make it reasonable to fight him.</p><p></p><p>-You say that was your intention, Ranger, yet per what I say above- the start of book 10 *doesn't* have all the nations in thrall to the Ob. They're still alive and kicking- even though their lighthouses *worked*. Sure, they're open to the idea of working with the Ob, but it isn't until Book 13 that the party has the entire world utterly dominated.</p><p></p><p><u><strong>My solutions</strong></u></p><p></p><p>It seems good to not go an entire massive post of complaining without offering a few solutions.</p><p></p><p><strong>Book 7</strong></p><p></p><p>There's one possibility and it's one I really quite like. I let my party choose their own configuration, and sway the majority of the Convocation towards it- but Nic refuses, and enforces MAP; because it's based on *him* and his teachings. He does this because for all his words about humility and understanding, he's a prideful bastard, and doesn't want a new world that isn't at least partially gruonded in his ideals.</p><p></p><p>The trouble with this is that MAP is utopian- and is it really worth fighting for one utopia over another? Thus I'm considering altering MAP a tiny amount to make it more objectionable.</p><p></p><p>Another possibility is that Nic will take the convocation's vote (after killing Colossus), but will insist on also adding a mental control ritual to the reconfig.</p><p></p><p><strong>Book 8</strong></p><p></p><p>I'm still a touch unsure what to do about Book 8. The best answer does seem to be offering a concrete, tangible reward for acquriing Kasvarina's allegiance. Have her mess with the ritual so it doesn't cause as much bother.</p><p></p><p><strong>Book 9</strong></p><p></p><p>Simple idea- the Ob are really, really, really worried about the Fey Titans. They're pretty sure they're all going to rise up- and they might unite. So, two-stage plan. First, Catherine Romana becomes Queen. Secondly, Stanfield uses domination energies- funnelled from around Risur through the Flint lighthouse- to control the wills of all Risuri. As the King's power is based on the peoples' belief, controlling their will means the King will have enough power to oppose even all the fey titans put together.</p><p></p><p>This is pretty easily tied in with the Voice; they think he's asleep.</p><p></p><p><strong>Quick ending note</strong></p><p></p><p>Zeit is the best AP I've ever seen. But I don't think you'll take offence if I say it could have used a few more editing passes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="arkwright, post: 7537513, member: 6925177"] Andrew, Ranger, I appreciate your thoughts- yet per the books, you're wrong on a few points. [B]Book 7[/B] -I appreciate that the party could just join the Ob- but that would require significant alterations and DIY to books 8 and 9 so we'd like to avoid that if at all possible. Same for any assault-Axis-Island shenanigans. -The Ob are indeed evil. It's just that their plan is both utopian and inevitable; so that would seem to make it more difficult for the party to want to oppose them. -Is interplanar invasion in and of itself worth opposing a utopian reconfig? My players don't think so. Plus, in the end, it doesn't really matter- in the Gyre, having Apet and Nem is likely no protection. -They might not have the right but if it's both inevitable and utopian, how much struggle is it worth? -Trusting them not to mess it up is just more cause to join with them, though. [B]Book 8[/B] -Yet Kasvarina doesn't show up in book 8. I suppose I could pretend she was going to show up, though that seems a little weak. -Insight and history is valuable, but it's not the objective of the main mission- 'stop the Ob'. -Breaking their divination protection doesn't seem as valuble after they've seen all Ob officers at the convocation. Plus my players are easily hitting the DC to break through. -Loot is an alright reward. I just suspect it will feel paltry if the party starts the book with 'your mission is X!' and then even though they succeed, they fail to accomplish X. [B] Book 9[/B] -He is a traitor, yet if you look closer at the lighthouse and realize its function, all he's doing is stabilizing and protecting Risur. He's not involved in Romana's plan to kill the king. He might be deceiving the Risuri military, but that might even be heroic when the alternative is sitting quiet in a basement and letting the city be damaged by the reconfig. -Yet here's the thing- the Ob ritual does *not* smooth the control of the Ob over other nations, or at least not immediately and enormously. The book 10 newspaper articles are clear- all nations (except Danor) are very much still independent and indifferent to the Ob. Shantus slaps down some Ob coups, Drakr is mired in nihilistic eschatology. Thus there is no real 'penalty' for if Stanfield wins. -You say the PCs shouldn't be fully aware of the Axis Seal Ritual, but per what the book specifically says they should learn at Schism, they know *everything*- that Borne is required, that there's a great seal of gold, that the lighthouses are a stabilizing influence. All they don't know is the icons and the location- and even then, the book expects canny players to figure it out. I genuinely don't see how a party can be hoodwinked into thinking Stanfield is running the main ritual when there isn't a three-hundred-foot colossus helping him. [B]Ranger[/B] -I am grateful you put in a 'PCs join the Ob' track. Though part of my 'why should the party fight the Ob' extends to Risur- 'why should Risur fight the party if they join the Ob'. -I do think book 8 will do a good ob at fully introducing the party to Nic, and realizing just how much of a dick he is. I just worry it might not make it reasonable to fight him. -You say that was your intention, Ranger, yet per what I say above- the start of book 10 *doesn't* have all the nations in thrall to the Ob. They're still alive and kicking- even though their lighthouses *worked*. Sure, they're open to the idea of working with the Ob, but it isn't until Book 13 that the party has the entire world utterly dominated. [U][B]My solutions[/B][/U] It seems good to not go an entire massive post of complaining without offering a few solutions. [B]Book 7[/B] There's one possibility and it's one I really quite like. I let my party choose their own configuration, and sway the majority of the Convocation towards it- but Nic refuses, and enforces MAP; because it's based on *him* and his teachings. He does this because for all his words about humility and understanding, he's a prideful bastard, and doesn't want a new world that isn't at least partially gruonded in his ideals. The trouble with this is that MAP is utopian- and is it really worth fighting for one utopia over another? Thus I'm considering altering MAP a tiny amount to make it more objectionable. Another possibility is that Nic will take the convocation's vote (after killing Colossus), but will insist on also adding a mental control ritual to the reconfig. [B]Book 8[/B] I'm still a touch unsure what to do about Book 8. The best answer does seem to be offering a concrete, tangible reward for acquriing Kasvarina's allegiance. Have her mess with the ritual so it doesn't cause as much bother. [B]Book 9[/B] Simple idea- the Ob are really, really, really worried about the Fey Titans. They're pretty sure they're all going to rise up- and they might unite. So, two-stage plan. First, Catherine Romana becomes Queen. Secondly, Stanfield uses domination energies- funnelled from around Risur through the Flint lighthouse- to control the wills of all Risuri. As the King's power is based on the peoples' belief, controlling their will means the King will have enough power to oppose even all the fey titans put together. This is pretty easily tied in with the Voice; they think he's asleep. [B]Quick ending note[/B] Zeit is the best AP I've ever seen. But I don't think you'll take offence if I say it could have used a few more editing passes. [/QUOTE]
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