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Party Motivations in Books 7-9: Why do they fight?
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<blockquote data-quote="Andrew Moreton" data-source="post: 7537715" data-attributes="member: 6920268"><p>I think everyone will have some disagreements a lot depends on your group and their approach and we are all different.</p><p>In this case you are getting a comprehensive set of answers as I am off work recovering from surgery and have a lot of time available</p><p></p><p>I agree it will be a lot of work, I don't expect to need it for all of the many reasons plus I know my group. I don't worry too much about an assault on Axis island as they won't have time. They won't be ready before they recover Kasavarina and then the whole faerie thing will circumvent any plans , plus I am not sure they will realise how critical Axis island is . I know they will think it important but they should not know enough about the details of the Ob rituals to know that the Lighthouses are secondary and that the Island is everything. I expect that only the Tier 1 Ob and the golden cell tasked with the ritual on Axis island actually know that so most of the people at the convocation in book 7 know nothing about the details of implementing the plan and are only aware it changes the planes and will use the lanterns. The ob seem to be good at comparmentalising information and this strikes me as a big secret worth limiting.</p><p></p><p>Because a plan is their vision of utopian is no reason to let someone enforce it. Even if Utopian in vision the execution may not be . The communist vision is a form of utopia but implementation always seems to leave a few million dead , Nic is that sort of Utopian anyone not conforming to his vision will need to be 're-educated' or eliminated to protect the majority and the future. This is enougth to oppose it plus of course some characters and players may not like the details of his Utopia.</p><p>Inevieitable How so? The players will strive and hope to prevent it , so why should it seem ineveitable. Yes the plot as structured makes it impractiable to allow the players to stop the ritual but they don't know that. (As an aside if through brilliance or madness my players actually reach axis island and try to stop the ritual the results of their efforts will be the Gyre , I may then retroactivly reveal that the Voice of Rot has been messing with their heads to cause this since book 3). I don't think the plan is ineveitable and my pc's certainly won't.</p><p></p><p>Extraplanar invasion different vewpoints the Shimmering legion and the Gidim are both Exisential world shatterring threats maintaining a planar config which has prevented them for at lest 5000 years sounds good to me. I have made the threat of the legion more personal to my players as it is lead by one of the pc's from theIR Way of the Wicked campaign and they fear that the rest of those terrible evil masterminds lurk in the planes beyond along maybe with the FROG!</p><p>The Gyre actually seems a perfect defense against planar invasion only what is in the Gyre can get you and anyway the Gyre will eat your home long before a really good invasion can occure. Of course the players home does not actually reach the Gyre unless they fail and before it does the Gidim have already launched one attack and the legion may be planning its attack. In any case the Gyre is a result of a failed ritual the players should have no warning or expectation of it only the Voice of Rot is aware of this threat and welcomes it. Nic would deny any possibility of his ritual failing only treachery and reactionary sabotage could be a problem and he will prevent that (or not actually)</p><p></p><p></p><p>See above and if it is right to resist than any degree of struggle is right. I do agree that if your players mistakenly buy into the Ob plan helping them to prevent a mistake is a good idea until they fall victim to the first purge.</p><p></p><p>Not sure what you mean she shows up a lot in book 8, which one did you mean I suspect a typo.</p><p></p><p>Know your enemy , at the start of book 8 the players still do not know about the details of the Ob and so seek out Kasavarina to learn its secrets and possibly use her to control the Colossus . They do in fact learn a lot and that will be the key to bringing down Nic to me and I think my group this will be valuable. Seperatly as I liked book 8 and my players gave me the openings I have invested them with personal interests in Kasavarina beyond their natural curiosity and this investigation will have a lot of meaning to them ,I understand not all groups will but I find that the structure of the AP naturally works well with an Eladrin Vekeshi preferably female who is interested in Kasavarina so I influenced my players so one was created although that was not difficult as the idea appealed to one of them. Sadly no Urban Empath and the Starseer is an NPC but the Vekeshi was the most important.</p><p>If you have an optimised party like I do all DC's in APs and the NPC's are not up to facing the PC's so I increase all DC's and opponent to create the appropriate level of threat. This is not a flaw of this AP but pretty much all AP's.</p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>Probably you are right , that was not really a very serious suggestion. Although the Artifact weapons are really neat and my Vekeshi will really appreciate another sword of Ssramma and Bat-Manuel will cackle maniaclly at the realisation his Bat Mecha can now have machine guns.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p>Isn't he involved in the plot to kill the king? I assume that it is his plan as he knows the king is a block to the ineveitable flow of victory for the Ob so he will have been involved in the Ob plan to kill the King , and is only not participating because he is needed to get things done in Flint. If it helps have the assassins particularly Romana reveal this. But I have no doubt and my players will have no doubt that he is behind the assassins.</p><p></p><p>All he is doing is protecting the city? Perhaps that is his story. He is participating in the involuntary brainwashing of his citzens 'for their own good' using a technique which will only achieve its best result if his sworn liege the King is dead. Prima facie evidence of his treason and knowledge of High Treason. The man has abandoned his sworn duty to Treason his motive is the best long term good of the people and clearly he knows better what they need and want than they do after all for the last few centuries the people of Flint and Risur have failed to improve to meet his standards. </p><p></p><p>I think the Ob Ritual does help them establish the mindset they need to control the other nations despite local problems , the evidence is clear they are able to unite 4 nations against Risur in matter of weeks which is a truly impressive acievement . If Stansfield succeeds then almost everyone in Risur will side with the Ob leaving only a few strong willed to oppose it i,e the pc's and close allies.</p><p>In Drakr only a mad prophet and her followers resist, people who are pretty much beyond the scope of reason the Ob consider them as much an aberration as the pc's do however they are less of a threat to the Ob's vision than an free Risur so letting them kill a lot of people before they are dealt with is a lesser evil than a free Risur the armies can deal with them later.</p><p>The other lands all seem to be broadly united in supporting the Ob goal, killing off the gods is an unforseen side effect of the reduction in faith and a demon lord stirring the pot by giving away secrets and the events in Ber are why you should have kept the planar safeguards as the Ob has made the world more vulnerable to Gidim attack.</p></blockquote><p></p><p>It seems I am misrembering what the players should know. I don't actually have the ap at hand to check easily here </p><p></p><p></p><p>Your ideas sound like they will work for you. To me your plot for book 9 would require my characters switch to evil as the treason and mind control plan is something they would have enacted in Way of the Wicked although with more sex and were-tigers.</p><p></p><p>I think the issue is that you and your group interpret the Ob;s plans and actions differently than I do and differently than the AP expects which leads to your issues . This is a natural consequence of everyone being different so I expect we will agree to disagree on many points. However the discusion is always useful in making us think about potential issues our own groups will encounter although for the next few months it is Jedi and Sith for me.</p><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="Andrew Moreton, post: 7537715, member: 6920268"] I think everyone will have some disagreements a lot depends on your group and their approach and we are all different. In this case you are getting a comprehensive set of answers as I am off work recovering from surgery and have a lot of time available I agree it will be a lot of work, I don't expect to need it for all of the many reasons plus I know my group. I don't worry too much about an assault on Axis island as they won't have time. They won't be ready before they recover Kasavarina and then the whole faerie thing will circumvent any plans , plus I am not sure they will realise how critical Axis island is . I know they will think it important but they should not know enough about the details of the Ob rituals to know that the Lighthouses are secondary and that the Island is everything. I expect that only the Tier 1 Ob and the golden cell tasked with the ritual on Axis island actually know that so most of the people at the convocation in book 7 know nothing about the details of implementing the plan and are only aware it changes the planes and will use the lanterns. The ob seem to be good at comparmentalising information and this strikes me as a big secret worth limiting. Because a plan is their vision of utopian is no reason to let someone enforce it. Even if Utopian in vision the execution may not be . The communist vision is a form of utopia but implementation always seems to leave a few million dead , Nic is that sort of Utopian anyone not conforming to his vision will need to be 're-educated' or eliminated to protect the majority and the future. This is enougth to oppose it plus of course some characters and players may not like the details of his Utopia. Inevieitable How so? The players will strive and hope to prevent it , so why should it seem ineveitable. Yes the plot as structured makes it impractiable to allow the players to stop the ritual but they don't know that. (As an aside if through brilliance or madness my players actually reach axis island and try to stop the ritual the results of their efforts will be the Gyre , I may then retroactivly reveal that the Voice of Rot has been messing with their heads to cause this since book 3). I don't think the plan is ineveitable and my pc's certainly won't. Extraplanar invasion different vewpoints the Shimmering legion and the Gidim are both Exisential world shatterring threats maintaining a planar config which has prevented them for at lest 5000 years sounds good to me. I have made the threat of the legion more personal to my players as it is lead by one of the pc's from theIR Way of the Wicked campaign and they fear that the rest of those terrible evil masterminds lurk in the planes beyond along maybe with the FROG! The Gyre actually seems a perfect defense against planar invasion only what is in the Gyre can get you and anyway the Gyre will eat your home long before a really good invasion can occure. Of course the players home does not actually reach the Gyre unless they fail and before it does the Gidim have already launched one attack and the legion may be planning its attack. In any case the Gyre is a result of a failed ritual the players should have no warning or expectation of it only the Voice of Rot is aware of this threat and welcomes it. Nic would deny any possibility of his ritual failing only treachery and reactionary sabotage could be a problem and he will prevent that (or not actually) See above and if it is right to resist than any degree of struggle is right. I do agree that if your players mistakenly buy into the Ob plan helping them to prevent a mistake is a good idea until they fall victim to the first purge. Not sure what you mean she shows up a lot in book 8, which one did you mean I suspect a typo. Know your enemy , at the start of book 8 the players still do not know about the details of the Ob and so seek out Kasavarina to learn its secrets and possibly use her to control the Colossus . They do in fact learn a lot and that will be the key to bringing down Nic to me and I think my group this will be valuable. Seperatly as I liked book 8 and my players gave me the openings I have invested them with personal interests in Kasavarina beyond their natural curiosity and this investigation will have a lot of meaning to them ,I understand not all groups will but I find that the structure of the AP naturally works well with an Eladrin Vekeshi preferably female who is interested in Kasavarina so I influenced my players so one was created although that was not difficult as the idea appealed to one of them. Sadly no Urban Empath and the Starseer is an NPC but the Vekeshi was the most important. If you have an optimised party like I do all DC's in APs and the NPC's are not up to facing the PC's so I increase all DC's and opponent to create the appropriate level of threat. This is not a flaw of this AP but pretty much all AP's. [B] Probably you are right , that was not really a very serious suggestion. Although the Artifact weapons are really neat and my Vekeshi will really appreciate another sword of Ssramma and Bat-Manuel will cackle maniaclly at the realisation his Bat Mecha can now have machine guns. [/B] Isn't he involved in the plot to kill the king? I assume that it is his plan as he knows the king is a block to the ineveitable flow of victory for the Ob so he will have been involved in the Ob plan to kill the King , and is only not participating because he is needed to get things done in Flint. If it helps have the assassins particularly Romana reveal this. But I have no doubt and my players will have no doubt that he is behind the assassins. All he is doing is protecting the city? Perhaps that is his story. He is participating in the involuntary brainwashing of his citzens 'for their own good' using a technique which will only achieve its best result if his sworn liege the King is dead. Prima facie evidence of his treason and knowledge of High Treason. The man has abandoned his sworn duty to Treason his motive is the best long term good of the people and clearly he knows better what they need and want than they do after all for the last few centuries the people of Flint and Risur have failed to improve to meet his standards. I think the Ob Ritual does help them establish the mindset they need to control the other nations despite local problems , the evidence is clear they are able to unite 4 nations against Risur in matter of weeks which is a truly impressive acievement . If Stansfield succeeds then almost everyone in Risur will side with the Ob leaving only a few strong willed to oppose it i,e the pc's and close allies. In Drakr only a mad prophet and her followers resist, people who are pretty much beyond the scope of reason the Ob consider them as much an aberration as the pc's do however they are less of a threat to the Ob's vision than an free Risur so letting them kill a lot of people before they are dealt with is a lesser evil than a free Risur the armies can deal with them later. The other lands all seem to be broadly united in supporting the Ob goal, killing off the gods is an unforseen side effect of the reduction in faith and a demon lord stirring the pot by giving away secrets and the events in Ber are why you should have kept the planar safeguards as the Ob has made the world more vulnerable to Gidim attack. [/quote] It seems I am misrembering what the players should know. I don't actually have the ap at hand to check easily here Your ideas sound like they will work for you. To me your plot for book 9 would require my characters switch to evil as the treason and mind control plan is something they would have enacted in Way of the Wicked although with more sex and were-tigers. I think the issue is that you and your group interpret the Ob;s plans and actions differently than I do and differently than the AP expects which leads to your issues . This is a natural consequence of everyone being different so I expect we will agree to disagree on many points. However the discusion is always useful in making us think about potential issues our own groups will encounter although for the next few months it is Jedi and Sith for me. [/QUOTE]
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