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<blockquote data-quote="Puggins" data-source="post: 8000073" data-attributes="member: 12386"><p>I think that there is enough space here for no one to be wrong. So, continuing the discussion on that note...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'd like to know your frame of reference here.</p><p></p><p>Armor classes don't vary very significantly, frankly. The source of bonuses differ (pf1 = magic christmas tree, pf2 = level), but the overall effect is the same. A CR16 Ancient Black Dragon has AC39 in PF1. A CR16 Ancient Black Dragon has AC38 in PF2. A fairly well-euipped 5th level fighter in full plate +2 has AC ~24, a fairly well equipped fighter in full plate +1 in PF2 has AC ~24. You don't get that much variation, frankly.</p><p></p><p>Attack bonus is tricky- it has indeed been toned down, but the four-level result system means smaller variations have much more significant impacts. A 5th level fighter wielding a long sword +1 has an attack bonus of +14 or so. a 5th level cleric of Iomdae, same strength, has an attack bonus of +12. In PF1 the fighter will have something like a +11 or +12 while a cleric will have a +8 or +9, assuming similar strength. The +2 difference in pf2 will have a lot more effect than a +2 difference in pf1. at 6th level the fighter gets an extra attack, which shifts things around for sure.</p><p></p><p>Bottom line- the math is different- more streamlined, certainly- but I don't see it as that much "tighter" in terms of effect. A 7th level fighter will humiliate a 7th level cleric in melee, certainly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You've said this before, but can you give a concrete example? Not saying you're wrong, but the skill feats you take give you abilities that are clearly abilities that are distinctive, and usually shouldn't be used consistently. </p><p></p><p>For example, take acrobatics- someone with acrobatics (or even someone without acrobatics) can say "I jump off the balcony, try to grab the chandelier, swing over until I'm over the table and try to jump off and land on the table!"</p><p></p><p>the DM could call for an acrobatics check at 15 or 20. Someone with trained acrobatics has a much better chance to succeed than someone without acrobatics. They can still take a little bit of damage from falling 10', unless they have the catfall feet, in which case they're good. Nothing is precluded, but the catfall feat makes things a little easier for you. </p><p></p><p>I honestly can't think of something that is out and out removed from play as a possibility because it's now a class feature.</p><p></p><p>I do agree that there are much more elegant ways of handling things like backgrounds (I'm a fan of 13th age's background system myself), but I'm pleasantly surprised how few "filler" feats there are. In contrast, at least half of the feats in the 3.5/4e PHB were complete trash.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This I can't agree with. Those feats promote very different styles of fighters- something the pf1 feat tree very rarely did.</p><p></p><p>Sure, you can give a guy a "free" second attack, but then everyone would take that action (and ONLY that action). Instead you get a choice of ways to get bonuses, some of which can be combined.</p><p></p><p>And it appears to me that pf2 concentrates on breadth of customization, rather than power. Another way of stating the above is that pf2 rewards system mastery to a much lesser degree than pf1, which I think is a definite win, even if it means that Golarion blacksmiths need to learn to make something other than falchions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You definitely have a choice. Dueling Parry, Intimidating Strike, Aggressive block, snagging strike- none of these give you two attacks, all of them give you benefits that are competitive against a second strike, and some are definitely defensive in nature.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Can't disagree here, but I have yet to really see a game where the choices you want to have are really choices- most of the time you can boil a choice down to raw numbers there's going to be a definite winner and a "right" choice. in PF1 it was offense- most guides just came out and said that you shouldn't worry too much about AC, since it becomes irrelevant as you go higher in level. That wasn't strictly true, but it wasn't wrong either.</p><p></p><p>I do agree that nailing down the progression in such a strict manner is restrictive. On the other hand, classes do need some way to start distinctive. Still, I can see Archetypes in the future that can mix things up.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't have too much to comment on here, other than the fact that 3.5e and PF1 had the same issues, where stats were king and every amulet/belt without stats might as well not exist.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Puggins, post: 8000073, member: 12386"] I think that there is enough space here for no one to be wrong. So, continuing the discussion on that note... I'd like to know your frame of reference here. Armor classes don't vary very significantly, frankly. The source of bonuses differ (pf1 = magic christmas tree, pf2 = level), but the overall effect is the same. A CR16 Ancient Black Dragon has AC39 in PF1. A CR16 Ancient Black Dragon has AC38 in PF2. A fairly well-euipped 5th level fighter in full plate +2 has AC ~24, a fairly well equipped fighter in full plate +1 in PF2 has AC ~24. You don't get that much variation, frankly. Attack bonus is tricky- it has indeed been toned down, but the four-level result system means smaller variations have much more significant impacts. A 5th level fighter wielding a long sword +1 has an attack bonus of +14 or so. a 5th level cleric of Iomdae, same strength, has an attack bonus of +12. In PF1 the fighter will have something like a +11 or +12 while a cleric will have a +8 or +9, assuming similar strength. The +2 difference in pf2 will have a lot more effect than a +2 difference in pf1. at 6th level the fighter gets an extra attack, which shifts things around for sure. Bottom line- the math is different- more streamlined, certainly- but I don't see it as that much "tighter" in terms of effect. A 7th level fighter will humiliate a 7th level cleric in melee, certainly. You've said this before, but can you give a concrete example? Not saying you're wrong, but the skill feats you take give you abilities that are clearly abilities that are distinctive, and usually shouldn't be used consistently. For example, take acrobatics- someone with acrobatics (or even someone without acrobatics) can say "I jump off the balcony, try to grab the chandelier, swing over until I'm over the table and try to jump off and land on the table!" the DM could call for an acrobatics check at 15 or 20. Someone with trained acrobatics has a much better chance to succeed than someone without acrobatics. They can still take a little bit of damage from falling 10', unless they have the catfall feet, in which case they're good. Nothing is precluded, but the catfall feat makes things a little easier for you. I honestly can't think of something that is out and out removed from play as a possibility because it's now a class feature. I do agree that there are much more elegant ways of handling things like backgrounds (I'm a fan of 13th age's background system myself), but I'm pleasantly surprised how few "filler" feats there are. In contrast, at least half of the feats in the 3.5/4e PHB were complete trash. This I can't agree with. Those feats promote very different styles of fighters- something the pf1 feat tree very rarely did. Sure, you can give a guy a "free" second attack, but then everyone would take that action (and ONLY that action). Instead you get a choice of ways to get bonuses, some of which can be combined. And it appears to me that pf2 concentrates on breadth of customization, rather than power. Another way of stating the above is that pf2 rewards system mastery to a much lesser degree than pf1, which I think is a definite win, even if it means that Golarion blacksmiths need to learn to make something other than falchions. You definitely have a choice. Dueling Parry, Intimidating Strike, Aggressive block, snagging strike- none of these give you two attacks, all of them give you benefits that are competitive against a second strike, and some are definitely defensive in nature. Can't disagree here, but I have yet to really see a game where the choices you want to have are really choices- most of the time you can boil a choice down to raw numbers there's going to be a definite winner and a "right" choice. in PF1 it was offense- most guides just came out and said that you shouldn't worry too much about AC, since it becomes irrelevant as you go higher in level. That wasn't strictly true, but it wasn't wrong either. I do agree that nailing down the progression in such a strict manner is restrictive. On the other hand, classes do need some way to start distinctive. Still, I can see Archetypes in the future that can mix things up. I don't have too much to comment on here, other than the fact that 3.5e and PF1 had the same issues, where stats were king and every amulet/belt without stats might as well not exist. [/QUOTE]
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