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<blockquote data-quote="pawsplay" data-source="post: 4937389" data-attributes="member: 15538"><p>I remember, when I first started by 3.5 campaign, I had the PCs at first level be part of a group of dwarves attacked by goblins on worgs. I planned to have the NPC's mostly rough up the PCs a bit and take some casualties leaving the PCs to fight a few goblins. Well, they cornered a worg. There were no actual PC deaths, but I remember almost creating a TPK during the "intro movie" for that campaign. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>I looked over the stats, and I discovered that not only were AD&D animals, beasts, and other critters tougher than Basic D&D ones, often by a lot in the case of creatures with rend attacks, but 3.0/3.5 took it even further with fairly generous Constitution modifiers on multiple hit dice and special attacks, like the worg's trip. In many cases, a large wolf was far more dangerous than a mid-level warrior or even a 2nd level fighter. They had really low AC, but since they could take a hit and their offense was killer, it took fairly careful tactics to take them down. Although it took longer, the same group recently took on a CR 26 dragon at level 17 and had fewer near-death-experiences compared to the same party at level 1 versus a worg and two goblins...</p><p></p><p>My general feel is that awarding multiple hit dice to fairly normal creatures and then giving them above average stats leads not only to deadly housecats but to Anti-Tank Wolves. Generally speaking, I think an animal should have 1 HD at Small or Medium size, 2 HD for large, and 4 HD for Huge, adding one extra hit die for solitary predators and powerful social herd animals (like elephants or rams). Then you give them decent ability scores and the result should be a credible threat... but no match for the Roman legions. In AD&D it made sense to give wolves 2 HD because they were fairly dangerous, but you didn't have bonus hit points for Constitution. All monsters basically had was hit dice, AC, natural attacks, senses, and a few special attacks. </p><p></p><p>I haven't looked over the PF critters in complete detail, but so far my impression is that they are both more logical and more balanced.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pawsplay, post: 4937389, member: 15538"] I remember, when I first started by 3.5 campaign, I had the PCs at first level be part of a group of dwarves attacked by goblins on worgs. I planned to have the NPC's mostly rough up the PCs a bit and take some casualties leaving the PCs to fight a few goblins. Well, they cornered a worg. There were no actual PC deaths, but I remember almost creating a TPK during the "intro movie" for that campaign. :) I looked over the stats, and I discovered that not only were AD&D animals, beasts, and other critters tougher than Basic D&D ones, often by a lot in the case of creatures with rend attacks, but 3.0/3.5 took it even further with fairly generous Constitution modifiers on multiple hit dice and special attacks, like the worg's trip. In many cases, a large wolf was far more dangerous than a mid-level warrior or even a 2nd level fighter. They had really low AC, but since they could take a hit and their offense was killer, it took fairly careful tactics to take them down. Although it took longer, the same group recently took on a CR 26 dragon at level 17 and had fewer near-death-experiences compared to the same party at level 1 versus a worg and two goblins... My general feel is that awarding multiple hit dice to fairly normal creatures and then giving them above average stats leads not only to deadly housecats but to Anti-Tank Wolves. Generally speaking, I think an animal should have 1 HD at Small or Medium size, 2 HD for large, and 4 HD for Huge, adding one extra hit die for solitary predators and powerful social herd animals (like elephants or rams). Then you give them decent ability scores and the result should be a credible threat... but no match for the Roman legions. In AD&D it made sense to give wolves 2 HD because they were fairly dangerous, but you didn't have bonus hit points for Constitution. All monsters basically had was hit dice, AC, natural attacks, senses, and a few special attacks. I haven't looked over the PF critters in complete detail, but so far my impression is that they are both more logical and more balanced. [/QUOTE]
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