Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Pathfinder Epic
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="glass" data-source="post: 8634512" data-attributes="member: 12251"><p>The feats in question are divided into Epic feats (which come in their own slots), and Legendary feats (which come in normal feat slots). Epic character get an Epic feat every level (three at 21st) and a Legendary feat every three levels. Legendary feats are available to anyone with at least 21 hit dice (including big dragons and the like), whereas Epic feats are specifically for characters with 20 actual class levels (by default). </p><p> </p><p>Some of the original ELH feats ended up as Legendary feats, some ended up as Epic feats (either combined, beefed up significantly, or both). And some disappeared entirely. There was not any hard and fast rule for what ended up as which; except that boring feat taxes went bye-bye.</p><p> </p><p>I am going to jump ahead a bit and quote possibly the first feat I came up with ten years ago, which does not exist in the ELH in any form; Epic Class Training:</p><p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Epic Class Training</strong> [Epic, Incremental]</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Prerequisites:</strong> EB +1.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Benefits:</strong> Choose a class in which you have no more than two fewer than the maximum number of levels, or two classes in which they have no more than one fewer than the maximum number of levels. Your class levels increase as appropriate, and you gain the full class abilities and features (except bab, saves, hit points, and skill ranks) of two levels that class or classes.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">For example, a Ftr 19/Wiz 1, taking this feat at 21st level, could not take two levels of Fighter because that would make the Ftr level 21, but could take one level of Fighter and one of something else, or two of any class other than Fighter (including Wizard, of course). As with normal multiclassing, you may not select levels in unchained class for which you already have the standard version, nor vice versa. Similarly, you may not select levels in the same class you already have but with different archetypes. However, the restriction on taking levels in a class and its alternate (rogue and ninja, cavalier and samurai) are waived at Epic levels.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Instead of two level in normal classes, you can instead take a single level in a wide class, even if you were not previously gestalt. Similarly, you can take a level in a supplementary class and its co-requisite class. However, the character is not otherwise considered gestalt, so for example does not have restrictions on prestige classes.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Increment:</strong> You may take this feat more than once. Each time you do so the EB prerequisite</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">increases by 1.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Special:</strong> In some circumstances you can count levels gains via this feat as part of your</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">progression for bab and base saves. See Caps & Level Shuffling on page XX.</p><p></p><p>This demonstrates a couple of things. The first is; how chunky Epic feats are. Almost two whole class levels (give or take some numbers) is nothing to sneeze at, and that set the benchmark for other Epic feats to try to live up to. Hopefully they mostly suceeded.</p><p></p><p>Incremental feats are a category of my own invention. I realised quite quickly that any character interested in taking this feat to progress class levels would probably want to take it as often as possible. Which would potential crowd out the other Epic feat choices if that was every level. OTOH, it obviously needs to be takable more than once. Thus, the Increment - every time you take it, they prerequisites go up for the next time. As an aside, it is impossible to have Epic feat slots and not have an EB of at least +1, so anyone who could take this feat at all could not fail to meet the prereq the first time. But to take it a second time, you would need an EB of +2 (ie 23rd level).</p><p></p><p>This is partly why it gives two levels: Two class levels per feat and one feat every other character level averages out to one class level per character level.</p><p></p><p>The fact that this allows my gestalt-focused homebrew to be used by otherwise non-gestalt characters is a nice bonus (since none of that existed when I wrote the original version of this feat, it could not be part of the original intent). Apart from that, the the main change from the original version was the bit about waiving the restriction on alternate classes. If you have twenty levels of Rogue, you <s>have probably suffered enough</s> might think that progressing with levels of Ninja is a good way to go, and who am I to stand in your way? The previous version had a seperate feat to allow that, but see above about boring feat taxes....</p><p></p><p>Finally, the reference back to the introduction for Caps & Level Shuffling: You only get to count twenty levels of classes for bab, base saves, but they do not have to be the first twenty levels. That way, if you are a Fighter 20/Wizard 20, you will have full bab and good Fortitude and Will saves, regardless of which order in which you take those levels. This was supposed to apply to hit points as well, but I realised that not only did I not actually say that, I failed to say <em>anything at all</em> about gaining hit points at Epic levels (apart from a tangential mention under FCB).</p><p></p><p>The previous version had no extra hp either, although it did have a (boring, feat-taxy, now gone) feat called Epic Defences that every one of my PCs took which did give extra hp. Maybe that was supposed to be the only way to get hp at Epic levels - or maybe it was not, but I forgot to include my players assumed that was supposed to be the only way. I cannot remember now, and I am sure my players do not either.</p><p></p><p>_</p><p>glass.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="glass, post: 8634512, member: 12251"] The feats in question are divided into Epic feats (which come in their own slots), and Legendary feats (which come in normal feat slots). Epic character get an Epic feat every level (three at 21st) and a Legendary feat every three levels. Legendary feats are available to anyone with at least 21 hit dice (including big dragons and the like), whereas Epic feats are specifically for characters with 20 actual class levels (by default). Some of the original ELH feats ended up as Legendary feats, some ended up as Epic feats (either combined, beefed up significantly, or both). And some disappeared entirely. There was not any hard and fast rule for what ended up as which; except that boring feat taxes went bye-bye. I am going to jump ahead a bit and quote possibly the first feat I came up with ten years ago, which does not exist in the ELH in any form; Epic Class Training: [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT][B]Epic Class Training[/B] [Epic, Incremental][/INDENT] [INDENT][B]Prerequisites:[/B] EB +1.[/INDENT] [INDENT][B]Benefits:[/B] Choose a class in which you have no more than two fewer than the maximum number of levels, or two classes in which they have no more than one fewer than the maximum number of levels. Your class levels increase as appropriate, and you gain the full class abilities and features (except bab, saves, hit points, and skill ranks) of two levels that class or classes.[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT]For example, a Ftr 19/Wiz 1, taking this feat at 21st level, could not take two levels of Fighter because that would make the Ftr level 21, but could take one level of Fighter and one of something else, or two of any class other than Fighter (including Wizard, of course). As with normal multiclassing, you may not select levels in unchained class for which you already have the standard version, nor vice versa. Similarly, you may not select levels in the same class you already have but with different archetypes. However, the restriction on taking levels in a class and its alternate (rogue and ninja, cavalier and samurai) are waived at Epic levels.[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT]Instead of two level in normal classes, you can instead take a single level in a wide class, even if you were not previously gestalt. Similarly, you can take a level in a supplementary class and its co-requisite class. However, the character is not otherwise considered gestalt, so for example does not have restrictions on prestige classes.[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT][B]Increment:[/B] You may take this feat more than once. Each time you do so the EB prerequisite[/INDENT] [INDENT]increases by 1.[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT][B]Special:[/B] In some circumstances you can count levels gains via this feat as part of your[/INDENT] [INDENT]progression for bab and base saves. See Caps & Level Shuffling on page XX.[/INDENT] This demonstrates a couple of things. The first is; how chunky Epic feats are. Almost two whole class levels (give or take some numbers) is nothing to sneeze at, and that set the benchmark for other Epic feats to try to live up to. Hopefully they mostly suceeded. Incremental feats are a category of my own invention. I realised quite quickly that any character interested in taking this feat to progress class levels would probably want to take it as often as possible. Which would potential crowd out the other Epic feat choices if that was every level. OTOH, it obviously needs to be takable more than once. Thus, the Increment - every time you take it, they prerequisites go up for the next time. As an aside, it is impossible to have Epic feat slots and not have an EB of at least +1, so anyone who could take this feat at all could not fail to meet the prereq the first time. But to take it a second time, you would need an EB of +2 (ie 23rd level). This is partly why it gives two levels: Two class levels per feat and one feat every other character level averages out to one class level per character level. The fact that this allows my gestalt-focused homebrew to be used by otherwise non-gestalt characters is a nice bonus (since none of that existed when I wrote the original version of this feat, it could not be part of the original intent). Apart from that, the the main change from the original version was the bit about waiving the restriction on alternate classes. If you have twenty levels of Rogue, you [S]have probably suffered enough[/S] might think that progressing with levels of Ninja is a good way to go, and who am I to stand in your way? The previous version had a seperate feat to allow that, but see above about boring feat taxes.... Finally, the reference back to the introduction for Caps & Level Shuffling: You only get to count twenty levels of classes for bab, base saves, but they do not have to be the first twenty levels. That way, if you are a Fighter 20/Wizard 20, you will have full bab and good Fortitude and Will saves, regardless of which order in which you take those levels. This was supposed to apply to hit points as well, but I realised that not only did I not actually say that, I failed to say [I]anything at all[/I] about gaining hit points at Epic levels (apart from a tangential mention under FCB). The previous version had no extra hp either, although it did have a (boring, feat-taxy, now gone) feat called Epic Defences that every one of my PCs took which did give extra hp. Maybe that was supposed to be the only way to get hp at Epic levels - or maybe it was not, but I forgot to include my players assumed that was supposed to be the only way. I cannot remember now, and I am sure my players do not either. _ glass. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Pathfinder Epic
Top