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<blockquote data-quote="LexStarwalker" data-source="post: 6124802" data-attributes="member: 6733461"><p>Ugh. Typo in the thread title. Just great.</p><p></p><p>I really enjoy Pathfinder. Or maybe a more accurate way to say it is I really WANT to enjoy Pathfinder. However, lately I've become concerned that the rules bloat is doing away with my enjoyment of the game.</p><p></p><p>First some caveats and background. I've been playing D&D since the AD&D 1st edition days. However, when I started DMing the game, I started with 2nd ed. Back in those days I never used miniatures or battlemaps, and I never felt the need to or even gave any thought to it. </p><p></p><p>When 3rd edition came out, I made the switch, and I really liked it. My 2nd ed. games had so many houserules that I literally had to give new players a handout explaining them all. This was very common where I grew up, and I took it as a sign that the game was broken (I still do). I really liked 3rd edition because I felt I could (for the most part) run the game with no, or very few, house rules. However, due to some of the new rules and some of the feats (attacks of opportunity, feats like mobility, combat reflexes, etc.) I started using miniatures and battle maps. I felt it added a new dimension to the game, and I liked it.</p><p></p><p>I made the switch to 3.5 and liked the tweaks that were made. When Pathfinder came out, I gave it a try, and I really liked it. I still do. I like the many ways you can customize your character. I love the concepts of alternate racial traits, class archetypes, and all that. However, I've found that now the miniatures and battle map are pretty much required, unless you're going to throw a bunch of feats and abilities out of your game.</p><p></p><p>I've played Pathfinder in quite a few different groups with different players. What is starting to bother me, is it seems we spend more time talking about and dealing with the mechanics of the game, then we do with roleplaying or story. More thought seems to go into positioning and map tactics during a battle than seems to go into playing a character.</p><p></p><p>This phenomenon is especially pronounced on the Paizo boards where people swap "builds" and I see players asking for "builds" from other players. Back in the day I would have never considered asking someone else to build my character, and I still wouldn't. To me the fun of an RPG is imagination and story and getting into a role, it's not about mechanics and numbers and coming up with the best build. I don't want to try to recreate an MMO experience in my tabletop RPG.</p><p></p><p>Now, I know that there are other games that can give me what I'm looking for. I'm really looking forward to Numenera, and I think it will be just the thing.</p><p></p><p>However, my question to you all, is do you think there's a way to trim the fat from Pathfinder and trim it down so play can be more streamlined? I'm afraid that there's not. The ruleset has become so bloated and complex, that I think if I start tinkering, it will all fall apart.</p><p></p><p>Have any of you tried to do this? What were your results? What did you do?</p><p></p><p>The one idea I've been kicking around is getting rid of the miniatures and battle map. That seems to be where the troubles started, as it really encourages an almost boardgame-like or MMO mentality. I seemed to get much better roleplaying from my players when I described the scene and maybe drew a picture to give a general idea, but otherwise it was all in our heads. </p><p></p><p>However, to do that you would have to do things like remove attacks of opportunity, threatened squares, and any feats or abilities that involved them. You would have to remove or repurpose a lot of feats that directly tie into the whole battle map thing, feats where when you take the battle map away, they become useless.</p><p></p><p>I just wonder if it could be done, and even if it could, would it be so much work you're basically designing a whole new game? At that point I might as well just play something else. I just hate to give up on Pathfinder completely, because I've been playing D&D so long and I really like Golarion.</p><p></p><p>I ran a 3.5 campaign that went to 20th level, and by then combat was ridiculous. It would take hours to do one combat. That isn't fun for anyone. I haven't run Pathfinder yet beyond 10th level, but I've heard it's even worse.</p><p></p><p>What do you guys think? If any of you feel in a similar way, have you found a solution? Is it even possible, or should I just run something else?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="LexStarwalker, post: 6124802, member: 6733461"] Ugh. Typo in the thread title. Just great. I really enjoy Pathfinder. Or maybe a more accurate way to say it is I really WANT to enjoy Pathfinder. However, lately I've become concerned that the rules bloat is doing away with my enjoyment of the game. First some caveats and background. I've been playing D&D since the AD&D 1st edition days. However, when I started DMing the game, I started with 2nd ed. Back in those days I never used miniatures or battlemaps, and I never felt the need to or even gave any thought to it. When 3rd edition came out, I made the switch, and I really liked it. My 2nd ed. games had so many houserules that I literally had to give new players a handout explaining them all. This was very common where I grew up, and I took it as a sign that the game was broken (I still do). I really liked 3rd edition because I felt I could (for the most part) run the game with no, or very few, house rules. However, due to some of the new rules and some of the feats (attacks of opportunity, feats like mobility, combat reflexes, etc.) I started using miniatures and battle maps. I felt it added a new dimension to the game, and I liked it. I made the switch to 3.5 and liked the tweaks that were made. When Pathfinder came out, I gave it a try, and I really liked it. I still do. I like the many ways you can customize your character. I love the concepts of alternate racial traits, class archetypes, and all that. However, I've found that now the miniatures and battle map are pretty much required, unless you're going to throw a bunch of feats and abilities out of your game. I've played Pathfinder in quite a few different groups with different players. What is starting to bother me, is it seems we spend more time talking about and dealing with the mechanics of the game, then we do with roleplaying or story. More thought seems to go into positioning and map tactics during a battle than seems to go into playing a character. This phenomenon is especially pronounced on the Paizo boards where people swap "builds" and I see players asking for "builds" from other players. Back in the day I would have never considered asking someone else to build my character, and I still wouldn't. To me the fun of an RPG is imagination and story and getting into a role, it's not about mechanics and numbers and coming up with the best build. I don't want to try to recreate an MMO experience in my tabletop RPG. Now, I know that there are other games that can give me what I'm looking for. I'm really looking forward to Numenera, and I think it will be just the thing. However, my question to you all, is do you think there's a way to trim the fat from Pathfinder and trim it down so play can be more streamlined? I'm afraid that there's not. The ruleset has become so bloated and complex, that I think if I start tinkering, it will all fall apart. Have any of you tried to do this? What were your results? What did you do? The one idea I've been kicking around is getting rid of the miniatures and battle map. That seems to be where the troubles started, as it really encourages an almost boardgame-like or MMO mentality. I seemed to get much better roleplaying from my players when I described the scene and maybe drew a picture to give a general idea, but otherwise it was all in our heads. However, to do that you would have to do things like remove attacks of opportunity, threatened squares, and any feats or abilities that involved them. You would have to remove or repurpose a lot of feats that directly tie into the whole battle map thing, feats where when you take the battle map away, they become useless. I just wonder if it could be done, and even if it could, would it be so much work you're basically designing a whole new game? At that point I might as well just play something else. I just hate to give up on Pathfinder completely, because I've been playing D&D so long and I really like Golarion. I ran a 3.5 campaign that went to 20th level, and by then combat was ridiculous. It would take hours to do one combat. That isn't fun for anyone. I haven't run Pathfinder yet beyond 10th level, but I've heard it's even worse. What do you guys think? If any of you feel in a similar way, have you found a solution? Is it even possible, or should I just run something else? [/QUOTE]
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