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PCs that are too big for their britches...do they live or die?
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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 6359274" data-attributes="member: 20323"><p>I don't think that's it at all. The OP is a considerate and experienced DM from everything I've gathered of his other posts and the OP. It is pretty clear that his players are over the top. It is not a question of "player rights" or "DM rights". It is a question of genre expectations. </p><p></p><p>Is this the kind of campaign where PCs can call the King (or the High Priest of Orcus) whatever you want without consequence? Is this the kind of campaign when a villain opens his mouth, the PCs are expectd to go for the throat immediately, or shut him up by belittling him?</p><p></p><p>IME players like that are coming from a place where, in the game, all they respect is force of arms. And if that's the case, you can either hope that lots of patience and many sessions of "Enlightened DMing" convinces them there is more to roleplaying than that...or you can use the tried, true, and fast method of "Hit them with the Stick." By which I don't mean rocks fall, PCs die, break the rules asshat DMing; but I do mean designing killer encounters/scenarios which smart play should avoid and stupid play will lead to.</p><p></p><p>It's doesn't make the DM a rat bastard, a bad friend, or mean he is trampling over "player rights." What it means is the DM is following thru on the promise of the game setting, creating logical consequences, and giving the player's choices meaningful choices. For a player to embrace such when it is to the benefit of his character and to reject it when it is to his character's detriment goes against the spirit of the game.</p><p></p><p>EDIT: I encountered this sort of different genre expectation / "player entitlement" on several occasions in 4th edition. As much as I like that system, I think it was partially to blame by encouraging encounters to fall within a manageable challenge bandwidth. Following the DMG guidelines made the game too easy, to put it bluntly. PCs could be assuredly victory in most scenarios, and even in the hard scenarios could be expected to emerge victorious with minimal losses. I forget if you play 4e [MENTION=18701]Oryan77[/MENTION] but this could have something to do with your current issue...the players learning complacency (and being slapstick) because they aren't challenged enough.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 6359274, member: 20323"] I don't think that's it at all. The OP is a considerate and experienced DM from everything I've gathered of his other posts and the OP. It is pretty clear that his players are over the top. It is not a question of "player rights" or "DM rights". It is a question of genre expectations. Is this the kind of campaign where PCs can call the King (or the High Priest of Orcus) whatever you want without consequence? Is this the kind of campaign when a villain opens his mouth, the PCs are expectd to go for the throat immediately, or shut him up by belittling him? IME players like that are coming from a place where, in the game, all they respect is force of arms. And if that's the case, you can either hope that lots of patience and many sessions of "Enlightened DMing" convinces them there is more to roleplaying than that...or you can use the tried, true, and fast method of "Hit them with the Stick." By which I don't mean rocks fall, PCs die, break the rules asshat DMing; but I do mean designing killer encounters/scenarios which smart play should avoid and stupid play will lead to. It's doesn't make the DM a rat bastard, a bad friend, or mean he is trampling over "player rights." What it means is the DM is following thru on the promise of the game setting, creating logical consequences, and giving the player's choices meaningful choices. For a player to embrace such when it is to the benefit of his character and to reject it when it is to his character's detriment goes against the spirit of the game. EDIT: I encountered this sort of different genre expectation / "player entitlement" on several occasions in 4th edition. As much as I like that system, I think it was partially to blame by encouraging encounters to fall within a manageable challenge bandwidth. Following the DMG guidelines made the game too easy, to put it bluntly. PCs could be assuredly victory in most scenarios, and even in the hard scenarios could be expected to emerge victorious with minimal losses. I forget if you play 4e [MENTION=18701]Oryan77[/MENTION] but this could have something to do with your current issue...the players learning complacency (and being slapstick) because they aren't challenged enough. [/QUOTE]
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PCs that are too big for their britches...do they live or die?
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