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<blockquote data-quote="chaochou" data-source="post: 6090879" data-attributes="member: 99817"><p>I can only give personal recollections, so with that proviso..</p><p></p><p>The first time I remember getting a hint was in about 1986, playing The James Bond RPG by Victory Games. That was the first time I encountered a true metagame mechanic, the Hero Point, which allowed a reroll - or maybe an auto-success on a failed roll, I don't recall exactly. Anyway, it clearly started to give the player a tiny bit more say in what was happening. Of course, it's only a tiny step forward - you're still in the GMs adventure, stopping the GMs villain, doing the GMs thing. But it was a hint.</p><p></p><p>Then Warhammer FRP gave you Fate Points, similar deal. And these started to become more common.</p><p></p><p>Over the Edge was another step forward (1992) but I didn't play it until a few years later. That allowed characters to have freeform descriptors. So, you could say your character was, a 'nasty piece of work' and that allowed you to make 'nasty piece of work' rolls. So, clearly, the GM is then supposed to react to you to improvise situations where a 'nasty piece of work' fits in.</p><p></p><p>I think that <em>allowed </em>a significant shift - GMs <em>could </em>build situations around player descriptions, where the prevailing attitude had been that players 'build' PCs to conform to GM situations. </p><p></p><p>But the first time I bought a game and realised I didn't have a clue what I was reading was HeroWars, which I bought when it came out in 2000. I've always been a big Glorantha fan, ran and played a ton of Runequest II and here was a new Greg Stafford game. That game, designed by Robin Laws, is what opened my eyes to all the new stuff RPGs could do.</p><p></p><p>It had Worlds, NPCs, PCs all built entirely out of freeform descriptors. It's resolution system was an eye-opener, allowing players to freely intermix skills, relationships, beliefs, magical abilities - all into one pool to resolve a problem or conflict. People really struggled with that (me included). But all you had to do was ensure the player kept adding to the narrative - you want to use your 'Relationship Wife 21' to help negotiate with the village elders? Then narrate in your wife and how your wife matters... Now your wife's in play, she can be threatened, bribed, kidnapped and she matters to you, both mechanically and as a character... Now she has real thematic weight, not just color. Now we get the story of what happened that time you introduced you wife to the village elders because you, the player, decided to make that happen...</p><p></p><p>HeroWars is how I ended up at The Forge (it had a very active HeroWars community at that time) where there were long discussions on how to make sense of all these tools. It was a very poorly explained game, with bad production, awful copy editing and horrendous layout. You could tell there was a brilliant and innovative game there, but it took some effort to find it. And from there I started dipping into other publishers.</p><p></p><p>So then you get your Sorceror and Dogs in the Vineyard (both, what, 2002?) and you've got games that really explain to players how to grab them and play them. Sorceror was particularly strong at explaining to players what they have to do because it forced them to create their own 'Bang' - their own immediate situation, moral dilemma, intractable problem which required action, however ill-advised. Dogs was strong for GMs in that it clearly explained how to create situation, rather than 'story' or 'plot'.</p><p></p><p>Right now I think Burning Wheel and Apocalypse World are the outstanding rpgs at explaining player-driven games from both player and GM viewpoints.</p><p></p><p>That's my thoughts, experiences and reminiscing! Very happy to hear others.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="chaochou, post: 6090879, member: 99817"] I can only give personal recollections, so with that proviso.. The first time I remember getting a hint was in about 1986, playing The James Bond RPG by Victory Games. That was the first time I encountered a true metagame mechanic, the Hero Point, which allowed a reroll - or maybe an auto-success on a failed roll, I don't recall exactly. Anyway, it clearly started to give the player a tiny bit more say in what was happening. Of course, it's only a tiny step forward - you're still in the GMs adventure, stopping the GMs villain, doing the GMs thing. But it was a hint. Then Warhammer FRP gave you Fate Points, similar deal. And these started to become more common. Over the Edge was another step forward (1992) but I didn't play it until a few years later. That allowed characters to have freeform descriptors. So, you could say your character was, a 'nasty piece of work' and that allowed you to make 'nasty piece of work' rolls. So, clearly, the GM is then supposed to react to you to improvise situations where a 'nasty piece of work' fits in. I think that [I]allowed [/I]a significant shift - GMs [I]could [/I]build situations around player descriptions, where the prevailing attitude had been that players 'build' PCs to conform to GM situations. But the first time I bought a game and realised I didn't have a clue what I was reading was HeroWars, which I bought when it came out in 2000. I've always been a big Glorantha fan, ran and played a ton of Runequest II and here was a new Greg Stafford game. That game, designed by Robin Laws, is what opened my eyes to all the new stuff RPGs could do. It had Worlds, NPCs, PCs all built entirely out of freeform descriptors. It's resolution system was an eye-opener, allowing players to freely intermix skills, relationships, beliefs, magical abilities - all into one pool to resolve a problem or conflict. People really struggled with that (me included). But all you had to do was ensure the player kept adding to the narrative - you want to use your 'Relationship Wife 21' to help negotiate with the village elders? Then narrate in your wife and how your wife matters... Now your wife's in play, she can be threatened, bribed, kidnapped and she matters to you, both mechanically and as a character... Now she has real thematic weight, not just color. Now we get the story of what happened that time you introduced you wife to the village elders because you, the player, decided to make that happen... HeroWars is how I ended up at The Forge (it had a very active HeroWars community at that time) where there were long discussions on how to make sense of all these tools. It was a very poorly explained game, with bad production, awful copy editing and horrendous layout. You could tell there was a brilliant and innovative game there, but it took some effort to find it. And from there I started dipping into other publishers. So then you get your Sorceror and Dogs in the Vineyard (both, what, 2002?) and you've got games that really explain to players how to grab them and play them. Sorceror was particularly strong at explaining to players what they have to do because it forced them to create their own 'Bang' - their own immediate situation, moral dilemma, intractable problem which required action, however ill-advised. Dogs was strong for GMs in that it clearly explained how to create situation, rather than 'story' or 'plot'. Right now I think Burning Wheel and Apocalypse World are the outstanding rpgs at explaining player-driven games from both player and GM viewpoints. That's my thoughts, experiences and reminiscing! Very happy to hear others. [/QUOTE]
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