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Pemertonian Scene Framing and 4e DMing Restarted
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6091606" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I've never actually played, or even read, a Paizo adventure path.</p><p></p><p>But two adventure path-ish adventures I do know are Dead Gods (2nd ed Planescape) and Expedition to the Demonweb Pit (3E). These seem to rely on the players following the GM lead <em>independently of its relationship to the PCs</em>. For me, this is the railroad-y element.</p><p></p><p>Also, they appy pressure, but (i) it is often procedural rather than dramatic pressure, and (ii) it has a self-defeating tendency.</p><p></p><p>Elaborating these: (i) Playing 4e there tends to be quite a bit of procedural pressure, because of the way combat resolution works (tactically and mechanically heavy), but at least as I play it I try to make the procedural pressure dramatic also - eg because it triggers thematically laden parts of a character, or invites them to make thematically laden choices. This is hard to achieve if you just run an adventure from a module in a by-the-numbers fashion.</p><p></p><p>(ii) What I mean by self-defeating pressure is this: if the players know that the plot event will trigger when they say the magic word <em>whatever else happens</em>; or if the players know that the confrontation with the (pre-determined) BBEG will eventuate <em>whatever else happens</em>; then how real is the pressure? What is really at stake - it seems to become more about gamist pride ("We finished the AP without losing a single PC!") than about dramatic/narrativist play. Now obvioulsy there's nothing wrong with that sort of gamist play and gamist pride - there's a whole computer game industry built around it, and I think it's clever RPG design to leverage that market - but I think it's different from scene-framing play as I understand it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I just wanted to add to chaochou here.</p><p></p><p>As I've often said, in a lot of ways my game and my fantasy RPGing aesthetics are pretty mainstream: orcs, goblins, medieval towns, necromancers etc.</p><p></p><p>With that in mind, here's a precis of one segment of my 4e campaign:</p><p></p><p>* The PCs had been staying with some witches. Their relationship was ambivalent - they had rescued one of the witches from a hydra, as part of a pact with the witches, but there was certainly not full trust. Another sister of the witches turned up at night and led the witches to attack the PCs. A fight ensued - the PCs failed to talk the witches down, but did succeed in persuading the one they rescued not to join in the fight. After killing all her sister, they reached a deal with the rescued witch where she would leave the area and not bother the PCs, but take up residence in an old goblin lair in the southern forest (that the PCs had earlier cleared of goblins).</p><p></p><p>* While resting up in the witches' house, the PCs were approached by some dwarven soldiers. The dwarves had been on patrol, got attacked by hobgoblins, and fell back in good order but got lost in the mountains, and had some wounded who could barely travel. They had been visited by an angel from Moradin, who told them that a powerful cleric could be found in the area. Now, as it happened, some of these dwarves were old rivals of Derrik, the dwarf PC, from the days (before the campaign started) when he had been an under-achieving, much derided member of the dwarven army. (Derrik's backstory was that you could not progess in dwarf society until you'd killed you first goblin; but every time the goblins attacked Derrik was somewhere else - running an errand, cleaning the latrines etc - and so had never graduated to full adulthood despite years more service than his agemates. So he had eventually deserted and struck off on his own to try and make his mark on the world.)</p><p></p><p>So the dwarves (Gutboy, Balto and Aggro) started mocking Derrik - What are you doing here? Where are the latrines? And where's that cleric the angel promised us? When Derrik's player, in character, replied that <em>he</em> was that cleric, the NPCs mocked him more - until he knocked them all down with a sweep of his polearm in a display of fighter-cleric-ish might - at which point they express amazement, apologised and became his servitors instead.</p><p></p><p>* The PCs and dwarves moved on and came to a village. In the night it was attacked by the hobgoblins. The PCs fought off the hobgoblins but the village was mostly burned down. And the hobgoblins had an imp with them the PCs had met before, and also turned out to be linked up with the PCs other enemies. The PCs killed the hobgoblins and the imp, drove off a cultist cleric and captured a behemoth.</p><p></p><p>* The PCs, the remnants of the dwarves and the remnants of the village moved on to a town, the PC ranger riding on his captured behemoth - which they subsequently slaughtered to help relieve the town of its food shortage. Over the next few days in the town the PCs thwarted three cults - an Orcus cult, a Demogorgon/Dagon cult and a Vecna cult - killing somewhere in the neighbourhood of 40 people in the process (or close to 1% of the town's population). The PCs, in the process of doing this, also saved the town' Baron from being killed; outed and defeated his evil advisor (who was their long-time nemesis); discovered that his niece was a Vecna cultist, rescued her from Kas, made an alliance with Kas in the process (and gave Kas back his Sword) and ended up having to kill the niece when she tried to escape their custody and killed her chambermaids and guards in the process; as a result sent the Baron into a nervous breakdown; lodged a writ in the town's clerical court to recover possession of an abadoned temple of Erathis and Ioun that had wererats squating in it; etc</p><p></p><p>Looked back upon as a sequence of events, this can all seem hugely contrived; and the players have certainly shaken their heads at the death toll that accompanies their PCs. But in play the contrivance isn't what's salient - what's salient is the situations the PCs are in, and the players' responses to that.</p><p></p><p>Also, the above took place over several months of real time, playing fortnightly/three-weekly sessions of 3 to 4 hours. So from the point of view of the real world, what is important is that every session feels like the players are doing something, taking their PCs where they want to take them. That this produces a ficitonal scenario which wouldn't be very good as a novel or a film is secondary - it's about the participant experience, rather than production for the satisfaction of a 3rd party audience.</p><p></p><p>Personally, I think there are big issues here. My main reason for that view is that the key to scene-framing is player-driven logic - there is no "logic of the narrative" independently of the players and what their PCs do.</p><p></p><p>I'll explain further by picking up on S'mon's reply.</p><p></p><p></p><p>What you say here reminds me of some comments in the free BW supplement <a href="http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/images/3/36/BurningTHAC0.pdf" target="_blank">Burning THACO"</a>:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">True to the Burning Wheel philosophy, players have important responsibilities too. The GM will share some information about the module. It's the players' responsibility to look for an angle in the module that they find interesting and want to pursue. Then discuss it with the group and write it into your beliefs!</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Mix it up. You can use both generic beliefs that give you a reason for dungeoneering and adventuring, and personalized beliefs that give you a reason for going on this particular adventure. . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">I recommend discarding any of the old notions that the players should be completely surprised by what's coming. Show the players the cover of the module you're running. Read them the back cover blurb. If it has an intro section, consider reading that to them.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">You don't have to reveal every twist and secret; just give them a broad overview. In other words, if the module is about delving into the Lost Temple of Whatsit to recover the Orb of Destiny that was stolen by Whosit during the reign of Thatguy, etc., tell the players! Then all of them should write at least one belief that takes them on the quest . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>t seems that every module I pick up has the structural integrity of mushy peas. You'll have to take it into your own</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>hands. Front load conflict. The first module I ran . . . had the players join up with a caravan in a town and described days of journey before it got to the point that something happened (other than random encounters, natch).</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>We're talking potentially hours of play before something significant happens.</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em></em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Don't let that happen. As a Burning Wheel GM, you have a ton of information at your disposal that D&D DMs don't. You have your players' characters' Beliefs, Instincts and Traits. You know what they got excited about when you gave them the briefing on the module. And in addition, like a DM, you have module itself. Use those tools to create conflicts and issues the players will have to address. If your module starts with pages of journey and exposition before anything happens, give the players a few sentences of synopsis and fast forward to the good stuff.</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em></em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>At the same time, use this opportunity to foreshadow the big stuff . . .</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em></em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>A lot of obstacles and opposition in modules is filler. It's there to take up time, to provide a reason for the niche skills of one type of character, or to make the experience seem "real." It's ok to leave a few of these in for old time's sake, but mostly, unless it's something your players will really get a kick out of, just go ahead and invoke the Say Yes or Roll Dice rule. Give maybe a sentence describing how the characters overcame the obstacle and move on.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>I think to try to get a protagonistic game going using a module, this advice is pretty good.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>The issue with an AP is keeping it going for a whole campaign. And letting the PCs choose their enemies, their allies, etc. Your buffet approach makes sense - getting things back into the AP scenario looks harder, to me.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>I'd be using maps, locations, and personalities, but really be ready to let the scripted plot go. (This may requires a willingness to level encounters up and down - in 4e that's not too bad, though.) When I ran Bastion of Broken Souls (in RM), the module scripted in a fight between the PCs and the exiled god, but my PCs tracked him down to befriend him, and they did so. At which point the adventure then took a completely different direction (but the module background and personalities were still in play).</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>I haven't read Gold cover-to-cover; rather, I've gone through it comparing to the Revised books. But as best I can tell there is none of AB in it except splitting mail armour into light and heavy, and the upgrade in effectiveness to the Block action.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>For me, a big part of what makes AB good is that it is so frank about what the game is aiming at; what will and won't work in that respect; what some of the limitations/constraints of the system are; etc. Plus the examples of how things can be adjudicated, how scenes can be framed, etc.</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6091606, member: 42582"] I've never actually played, or even read, a Paizo adventure path. But two adventure path-ish adventures I do know are Dead Gods (2nd ed Planescape) and Expedition to the Demonweb Pit (3E). These seem to rely on the players following the GM lead [I]independently of its relationship to the PCs[/I]. For me, this is the railroad-y element. Also, they appy pressure, but (i) it is often procedural rather than dramatic pressure, and (ii) it has a self-defeating tendency. Elaborating these: (i) Playing 4e there tends to be quite a bit of procedural pressure, because of the way combat resolution works (tactically and mechanically heavy), but at least as I play it I try to make the procedural pressure dramatic also - eg because it triggers thematically laden parts of a character, or invites them to make thematically laden choices. This is hard to achieve if you just run an adventure from a module in a by-the-numbers fashion. (ii) What I mean by self-defeating pressure is this: if the players know that the plot event will trigger when they say the magic word [I]whatever else happens[/I]; or if the players know that the confrontation with the (pre-determined) BBEG will eventuate [I]whatever else happens[/I]; then how real is the pressure? What is really at stake - it seems to become more about gamist pride ("We finished the AP without losing a single PC!") than about dramatic/narrativist play. Now obvioulsy there's nothing wrong with that sort of gamist play and gamist pride - there's a whole computer game industry built around it, and I think it's clever RPG design to leverage that market - but I think it's different from scene-framing play as I understand it. I just wanted to add to chaochou here. As I've often said, in a lot of ways my game and my fantasy RPGing aesthetics are pretty mainstream: orcs, goblins, medieval towns, necromancers etc. With that in mind, here's a precis of one segment of my 4e campaign: * The PCs had been staying with some witches. Their relationship was ambivalent - they had rescued one of the witches from a hydra, as part of a pact with the witches, but there was certainly not full trust. Another sister of the witches turned up at night and led the witches to attack the PCs. A fight ensued - the PCs failed to talk the witches down, but did succeed in persuading the one they rescued not to join in the fight. After killing all her sister, they reached a deal with the rescued witch where she would leave the area and not bother the PCs, but take up residence in an old goblin lair in the southern forest (that the PCs had earlier cleared of goblins). * While resting up in the witches' house, the PCs were approached by some dwarven soldiers. The dwarves had been on patrol, got attacked by hobgoblins, and fell back in good order but got lost in the mountains, and had some wounded who could barely travel. They had been visited by an angel from Moradin, who told them that a powerful cleric could be found in the area. Now, as it happened, some of these dwarves were old rivals of Derrik, the dwarf PC, from the days (before the campaign started) when he had been an under-achieving, much derided member of the dwarven army. (Derrik's backstory was that you could not progess in dwarf society until you'd killed you first goblin; but every time the goblins attacked Derrik was somewhere else - running an errand, cleaning the latrines etc - and so had never graduated to full adulthood despite years more service than his agemates. So he had eventually deserted and struck off on his own to try and make his mark on the world.) So the dwarves (Gutboy, Balto and Aggro) started mocking Derrik - What are you doing here? Where are the latrines? And where's that cleric the angel promised us? When Derrik's player, in character, replied that [I]he[/I] was that cleric, the NPCs mocked him more - until he knocked them all down with a sweep of his polearm in a display of fighter-cleric-ish might - at which point they express amazement, apologised and became his servitors instead. * The PCs and dwarves moved on and came to a village. In the night it was attacked by the hobgoblins. The PCs fought off the hobgoblins but the village was mostly burned down. And the hobgoblins had an imp with them the PCs had met before, and also turned out to be linked up with the PCs other enemies. The PCs killed the hobgoblins and the imp, drove off a cultist cleric and captured a behemoth. * The PCs, the remnants of the dwarves and the remnants of the village moved on to a town, the PC ranger riding on his captured behemoth - which they subsequently slaughtered to help relieve the town of its food shortage. Over the next few days in the town the PCs thwarted three cults - an Orcus cult, a Demogorgon/Dagon cult and a Vecna cult - killing somewhere in the neighbourhood of 40 people in the process (or close to 1% of the town's population). The PCs, in the process of doing this, also saved the town' Baron from being killed; outed and defeated his evil advisor (who was their long-time nemesis); discovered that his niece was a Vecna cultist, rescued her from Kas, made an alliance with Kas in the process (and gave Kas back his Sword) and ended up having to kill the niece when she tried to escape their custody and killed her chambermaids and guards in the process; as a result sent the Baron into a nervous breakdown; lodged a writ in the town's clerical court to recover possession of an abadoned temple of Erathis and Ioun that had wererats squating in it; etc Looked back upon as a sequence of events, this can all seem hugely contrived; and the players have certainly shaken their heads at the death toll that accompanies their PCs. But in play the contrivance isn't what's salient - what's salient is the situations the PCs are in, and the players' responses to that. Also, the above took place over several months of real time, playing fortnightly/three-weekly sessions of 3 to 4 hours. So from the point of view of the real world, what is important is that every session feels like the players are doing something, taking their PCs where they want to take them. That this produces a ficitonal scenario which wouldn't be very good as a novel or a film is secondary - it's about the participant experience, rather than production for the satisfaction of a 3rd party audience. Personally, I think there are big issues here. My main reason for that view is that the key to scene-framing is player-driven logic - there is no "logic of the narrative" independently of the players and what their PCs do. I'll explain further by picking up on S'mon's reply. What you say here reminds me of some comments in the free BW supplement [url=www.burningwheel.org/wiki/images/3/36/BurningTHAC0.pdf]Burning THACO"[/url]: [indent]True to the Burning Wheel philosophy, players have important responsibilities too. The GM will share some information about the module. It's the players' responsibility to look for an angle in the module that they find interesting and want to pursue. Then discuss it with the group and write it into your beliefs! Mix it up. You can use both generic beliefs that give you a reason for dungeoneering and adventuring, and personalized beliefs that give you a reason for going on this particular adventure. . . I recommend discarding any of the old notions that the players should be completely surprised by what's coming. Show the players the cover of the module you're running. Read them the back cover blurb. If it has an intro section, consider reading that to them. You don't have to reveal every twist and secret; just give them a broad overview. In other words, if the module is about delving into the Lost Temple of Whatsit to recover the Orb of Destiny that was stolen by Whosit during the reign of Thatguy, etc., tell the players! Then all of them should write at least one belief that takes them on the quest . . . [I]t seems that every module I pick up has the structural integrity of mushy peas. You'll have to take it into your own hands. Front load conflict. The first module I ran . . . had the players join up with a caravan in a town and described days of journey before it got to the point that something happened (other than random encounters, natch). We're talking potentially hours of play before something significant happens. Don't let that happen. As a Burning Wheel GM, you have a ton of information at your disposal that D&D DMs don't. You have your players' characters' Beliefs, Instincts and Traits. You know what they got excited about when you gave them the briefing on the module. And in addition, like a DM, you have module itself. Use those tools to create conflicts and issues the players will have to address. If your module starts with pages of journey and exposition before anything happens, give the players a few sentences of synopsis and fast forward to the good stuff. At the same time, use this opportunity to foreshadow the big stuff . . . A lot of obstacles and opposition in modules is filler. It's there to take up time, to provide a reason for the niche skills of one type of character, or to make the experience seem "real." It's ok to leave a few of these in for old time's sake, but mostly, unless it's something your players will really get a kick out of, just go ahead and invoke the Say Yes or Roll Dice rule. Give maybe a sentence describing how the characters overcame the obstacle and move on.[/I][/indent][I] I think to try to get a protagonistic game going using a module, this advice is pretty good. The issue with an AP is keeping it going for a whole campaign. And letting the PCs choose their enemies, their allies, etc. Your buffet approach makes sense - getting things back into the AP scenario looks harder, to me. I'd be using maps, locations, and personalities, but really be ready to let the scripted plot go. (This may requires a willingness to level encounters up and down - in 4e that's not too bad, though.) When I ran Bastion of Broken Souls (in RM), the module scripted in a fight between the PCs and the exiled god, but my PCs tracked him down to befriend him, and they did so. At which point the adventure then took a completely different direction (but the module background and personalities were still in play). I haven't read Gold cover-to-cover; rather, I've gone through it comparing to the Revised books. But as best I can tell there is none of AB in it except splitting mail armour into light and heavy, and the upgrade in effectiveness to the Block action. For me, a big part of what makes AB good is that it is so frank about what the game is aiming at; what will and won't work in that respect; what some of the limitations/constraints of the system are; etc. Plus the examples of how things can be adjudicated, how scenes can be framed, etc.[/i] [/QUOTE]
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