Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Permanent Increases in Intelligence Question
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 7173692" data-attributes="member: 6669384"><p>Actually, ElectricDragon, my questions regarding long term or permanent INT loss were purely practical, not meta-gaming at all. Neither were they "Those are the rules" type arguments. Neither were those of several others in this discussion, though you've just kind of hand-waved them all. </p><p></p><p>As I implied earlier, you seem to have asked a question, having already decided on the only answer you're willing to accept. Your privilege I suppose, but it you ask for our collective wisdom please don't complain when you get it.</p><p></p><p>Which brings us back to non-meta-game questions, such as "How would you decide which skills someone never learned, after an INT loss?"</p><p></p><p><Partial Tangent>I've heard your argument of "That doesn't happen very often", in all it's myriad forms, from a lot of people other than you. The nature of rules is that they should work in the rare cases just like they work in the common cases. If they don't, then they don't really work at all, they just seem to.</p><p></p><p>In my work we have two sayings, and I've found that they apply in gaming as well: "Almost always" means "Never". Also "Almost never" means "Always".</p><p></p><p>In my business (Computers), if we *almost always* have a given piece of information, that means we are going to see cases where we don't have it. The system needs to keep working when that happens, so we need to prepare for the "never" scenario. Similarly, if we "almost never" have to bill certain items, it means that we do have to bill them, once in a while. The system needs to be able to do that when the time arises, as if it happened every day.</p><p></p><p>In gaming, if a rule says "This is almost always accompanied by...", every single player will want their character or their situation to be the exception. If a power or spell "almost always has a visible effect", you can count on players arguing that their character's use of that power or spell will have "Invisible special effects". </p><p></p><p>And of course, if a rule says, "... to a maximum of...", read it as "...to a minimum of ...", because it's a rare player who will accept less than the maximum of anything, and many will argue that they should be the exception who can exceed that limit.</Partial Tangent></p><p></p><p>Responding more directly, making rules the way you suggest, which cover the easy-way path means that they have a gaping hole as soon as that unexpected event arises. </p><p></p><p>You don't see Bestow Curse being used on Int very often because of the style of game you play. Hit points are what you care about. Kill spells are favored over "You're screwed" spells. Generally, anyone can do hit points of damage, and it's a waste to spend your limited supply of magic trying to do what anyone with a pointy-stick can do an essentially unlimited amount of: Hit point damage. </p><p></p><p>When facing some opponents, you need to cripple before you kill. Consider the big-bad who uses Magic Jar as a standard tactic: You never get to face him/her in person, only the body they're currently possessing. Cripple or kill that body and he/she just possesses another. Hit points matter in the specific battle, but the battle isn't the war. Cripple the mind, on the other hand, and he's crippled no matter what body he might possess. </p><p></p><p>Even if I'm facing a straight combat machine, seven feet of Feral Half-Ogre Barbarian fury five levels higher than my character, something like Bestow Curse can reduce his CON by 6, and thus drop his HP by 3 per level. Or, it can reduce that INT he used as a dump-stat and turn him into a house plant. (Unlike Touch of Idiocy, Bestow Curse can drop a stat to a 1, which is all but non-functional. And it doesn't wear off.)</p><p></p><p>Or, to put it more simply, why hit him where he's strongest when you can hit him where he's weakest?</p><p></p><p>And you don't need to be a Rogue to have ranks in Hide or Move Silent. My current Wiz' has points in both. Same for spot and Listen. Having a high Int means a lot of skill points, including enough to go cross-class once in a while. (Between the Elven bonus to Spot and Listen, the Alertness feat that comes from having a Familiar and me not using Wisdom as a dump stat, my character has Spot and Listen second only to the party Ranger.)</p><p></p><p>And, oddly, you don't need huge ranks in any skill to create the skill-boost item.</p><p></p><p>But all of your "That almost never happens" arguments point to rules holes, places where your home-brew system breaks. And, in my experience, players love rules holes. They hunt for them and exploit the hell out of them on a regular basis.</p><p></p><p>Now, as noted, if you're the DM you are free to run your game by any rules you want.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Greenfield, post: 7173692, member: 6669384"] Actually, ElectricDragon, my questions regarding long term or permanent INT loss were purely practical, not meta-gaming at all. Neither were they "Those are the rules" type arguments. Neither were those of several others in this discussion, though you've just kind of hand-waved them all. As I implied earlier, you seem to have asked a question, having already decided on the only answer you're willing to accept. Your privilege I suppose, but it you ask for our collective wisdom please don't complain when you get it. Which brings us back to non-meta-game questions, such as "How would you decide which skills someone never learned, after an INT loss?" <Partial Tangent>I've heard your argument of "That doesn't happen very often", in all it's myriad forms, from a lot of people other than you. The nature of rules is that they should work in the rare cases just like they work in the common cases. If they don't, then they don't really work at all, they just seem to. In my work we have two sayings, and I've found that they apply in gaming as well: "Almost always" means "Never". Also "Almost never" means "Always". In my business (Computers), if we *almost always* have a given piece of information, that means we are going to see cases where we don't have it. The system needs to keep working when that happens, so we need to prepare for the "never" scenario. Similarly, if we "almost never" have to bill certain items, it means that we do have to bill them, once in a while. The system needs to be able to do that when the time arises, as if it happened every day. In gaming, if a rule says "This is almost always accompanied by...", every single player will want their character or their situation to be the exception. If a power or spell "almost always has a visible effect", you can count on players arguing that their character's use of that power or spell will have "Invisible special effects". And of course, if a rule says, "... to a maximum of...", read it as "...to a minimum of ...", because it's a rare player who will accept less than the maximum of anything, and many will argue that they should be the exception who can exceed that limit.</Partial Tangent> Responding more directly, making rules the way you suggest, which cover the easy-way path means that they have a gaping hole as soon as that unexpected event arises. You don't see Bestow Curse being used on Int very often because of the style of game you play. Hit points are what you care about. Kill spells are favored over "You're screwed" spells. Generally, anyone can do hit points of damage, and it's a waste to spend your limited supply of magic trying to do what anyone with a pointy-stick can do an essentially unlimited amount of: Hit point damage. When facing some opponents, you need to cripple before you kill. Consider the big-bad who uses Magic Jar as a standard tactic: You never get to face him/her in person, only the body they're currently possessing. Cripple or kill that body and he/she just possesses another. Hit points matter in the specific battle, but the battle isn't the war. Cripple the mind, on the other hand, and he's crippled no matter what body he might possess. Even if I'm facing a straight combat machine, seven feet of Feral Half-Ogre Barbarian fury five levels higher than my character, something like Bestow Curse can reduce his CON by 6, and thus drop his HP by 3 per level. Or, it can reduce that INT he used as a dump-stat and turn him into a house plant. (Unlike Touch of Idiocy, Bestow Curse can drop a stat to a 1, which is all but non-functional. And it doesn't wear off.) Or, to put it more simply, why hit him where he's strongest when you can hit him where he's weakest? And you don't need to be a Rogue to have ranks in Hide or Move Silent. My current Wiz' has points in both. Same for spot and Listen. Having a high Int means a lot of skill points, including enough to go cross-class once in a while. (Between the Elven bonus to Spot and Listen, the Alertness feat that comes from having a Familiar and me not using Wisdom as a dump stat, my character has Spot and Listen second only to the party Ranger.) And, oddly, you don't need huge ranks in any skill to create the skill-boost item. But all of your "That almost never happens" arguments point to rules holes, places where your home-brew system breaks. And, in my experience, players love rules holes. They hunt for them and exploit the hell out of them on a regular basis. Now, as noted, if you're the DM you are free to run your game by any rules you want. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Permanent Increases in Intelligence Question
Top