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Permanent Increases in Intelligence Question
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<blockquote data-quote="ElectricDragon" data-source="post: 7180359" data-attributes="member: 10778"><p>Taking your points one at a time.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So If I, a mage, gain a point of str permanently (that is what we are talking about permanent changes, quit trying to confuse the issue with temporary). and it increases my attack and damage bonus, I do not get to apply it because I am not a melee combatant when I have to resort to melee combat to save my life? Or are you saying I can't change it on my character sheet until I get into melee combat, which may never happen if I'm lucky?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Wisdom bonuses have nothing to do with turning undead.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is where turn undead bonuses like extra turning attempts, extra mods on the check, and bonus damage to successful turning attempts apply. Making Charisma not the "red-headed step-child" you proposed. I do not see how this makes Int the "golden child" The hp bonus for Con seems to be both every level you have attained plus every level you will attain. Greedy, huh? Greedy to only allow melee bonuses for "melee types" Adding an extra attack per round to even it up for the fighter class could also be claimed to be greedy. I mean, don't fighters get all those neat feats, the ability to wear the heaviest armors, more hp, and more extra attacks than anyone else to make them competitive? Yet, you seem to need more for them. And their stat bonuses are not delayed or removed, even if they improve another physical stat. Greed indeed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I thought I said only already learned skills can be chosen (must have at least one rank in the skills you want to improve); looking back, I left that part out, sorry. But this gives players another reason for that 1 rank in a skill you don't use often (other that the trained skills which you cannot use unless you have at least one rank in them).</p><p></p><p>According to you: <strong>Intelligence provides only:</strong> skill mods and extra skill points when you level up. UNLESS YOU ARE A MAGE. It does not have a save tied to it. It doesn't have a special ability tied to it (Charisma and turn undead: thus increasing the number of classes that get extra benefits), and it doesn't give anything at all if you have no Int-based skills (for example: a low-Int fighter who shouldn't have read the book, but did anyway and now has an Int of 10. Whoo hoo, his mods for his Int skills, which he doesn't have, went up 1 point. and from now on when he levels, he gets one more skill point. But for a powerful magical book that will only impart this bonus once (or 1/10 years, I kinda like that rule, I think from 4e?)? No this lowly fighter needs more. This rule is not just to mages. Everyone benefits from this ruling. Of course, that being said, mages are the most likely class to benefit and they <strong>would</strong> benefit the most. But this rule is mainly so that the not-wizard classes do get a benefit from this stat increase.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Future as in "how I will get to the next level"? Or future as in "not until next level"?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As I have explained. This is untrue. Permanent magical changes that add to what is already there, not to create something new that was not there. Even though creating something new would seem to be more in the spirit of a <em>wish</em>; I would consider the gaining of new skills only if the <em>wish</em> were granted by a beneficent deific being (extremely rare occurrence).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Kind of like that but for Intelligence. Number of skill points affects everyone. I do not see the balance issues at all. (My 12th level mage is too powerful because he just gained 12 skill points from a wish, I'll have to retire him now, he'll overshadow the whole group).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>(And space is nature's way of keeping everything from happening in the same place.)</p><p>But waiting until the next combat is nothing like waiting until the next level. Don't even pretend that it is.</p><p></p><p>As far as Intelligence loss, I will go over it yet again.</p><p>After combat, we [the DM and player] get together and decide which skills take the hit. </p><p>What I didn't mention before is that no skill can be totally unlearned, you must keep at least one rank in a skill that you learned. If the decrease is deemed by campaign or adventure path (DM fiat) that it might be reversed soon; the skills are not changed; instead, the player gains a negative modifier to the skill checks equal to the number of skill points lost in that skill. Getting the curse reversed will remove the negative modifiers.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Blah to this, I answered most of these above. I disagree on most points, too. It is mean, but I feel I have to point out that most of these apply to your house rule too. Even though you claim that the problem you had is not related, it seemed to come to mind quickly as if the two were connected (and it does deal with combat and fighters and attacks: all areas your rule affects). I do not have problems in my campaigns with fighters being ineffective; I do not see in the rules where even more extra attacks are allowed by or are consistent with the rules. To me it would throw off balance quite quickly. But it is for your campaign and I have no say so about how you have fun. More power to you.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ElectricDragon, post: 7180359, member: 10778"] Taking your points one at a time. So If I, a mage, gain a point of str permanently (that is what we are talking about permanent changes, quit trying to confuse the issue with temporary). and it increases my attack and damage bonus, I do not get to apply it because I am not a melee combatant when I have to resort to melee combat to save my life? Or are you saying I can't change it on my character sheet until I get into melee combat, which may never happen if I'm lucky? Wisdom bonuses have nothing to do with turning undead. This is where turn undead bonuses like extra turning attempts, extra mods on the check, and bonus damage to successful turning attempts apply. Making Charisma not the "red-headed step-child" you proposed. I do not see how this makes Int the "golden child" The hp bonus for Con seems to be both every level you have attained plus every level you will attain. Greedy, huh? Greedy to only allow melee bonuses for "melee types" Adding an extra attack per round to even it up for the fighter class could also be claimed to be greedy. I mean, don't fighters get all those neat feats, the ability to wear the heaviest armors, more hp, and more extra attacks than anyone else to make them competitive? Yet, you seem to need more for them. And their stat bonuses are not delayed or removed, even if they improve another physical stat. Greed indeed. I thought I said only already learned skills can be chosen (must have at least one rank in the skills you want to improve); looking back, I left that part out, sorry. But this gives players another reason for that 1 rank in a skill you don't use often (other that the trained skills which you cannot use unless you have at least one rank in them). According to you: [b]Intelligence provides only:[/b] skill mods and extra skill points when you level up. UNLESS YOU ARE A MAGE. It does not have a save tied to it. It doesn't have a special ability tied to it (Charisma and turn undead: thus increasing the number of classes that get extra benefits), and it doesn't give anything at all if you have no Int-based skills (for example: a low-Int fighter who shouldn't have read the book, but did anyway and now has an Int of 10. Whoo hoo, his mods for his Int skills, which he doesn't have, went up 1 point. and from now on when he levels, he gets one more skill point. But for a powerful magical book that will only impart this bonus once (or 1/10 years, I kinda like that rule, I think from 4e?)? No this lowly fighter needs more. This rule is not just to mages. Everyone benefits from this ruling. Of course, that being said, mages are the most likely class to benefit and they [b]would[/b] benefit the most. But this rule is mainly so that the not-wizard classes do get a benefit from this stat increase. Future as in "how I will get to the next level"? Or future as in "not until next level"? As I have explained. This is untrue. Permanent magical changes that add to what is already there, not to create something new that was not there. Even though creating something new would seem to be more in the spirit of a [I]wish[/I]; I would consider the gaining of new skills only if the [I]wish[/I] were granted by a beneficent deific being (extremely rare occurrence). Kind of like that but for Intelligence. Number of skill points affects everyone. I do not see the balance issues at all. (My 12th level mage is too powerful because he just gained 12 skill points from a wish, I'll have to retire him now, he'll overshadow the whole group). (And space is nature's way of keeping everything from happening in the same place.) But waiting until the next combat is nothing like waiting until the next level. Don't even pretend that it is. As far as Intelligence loss, I will go over it yet again. After combat, we [the DM and player] get together and decide which skills take the hit. What I didn't mention before is that no skill can be totally unlearned, you must keep at least one rank in a skill that you learned. If the decrease is deemed by campaign or adventure path (DM fiat) that it might be reversed soon; the skills are not changed; instead, the player gains a negative modifier to the skill checks equal to the number of skill points lost in that skill. Getting the curse reversed will remove the negative modifiers. Blah to this, I answered most of these above. I disagree on most points, too. It is mean, but I feel I have to point out that most of these apply to your house rule too. Even though you claim that the problem you had is not related, it seemed to come to mind quickly as if the two were connected (and it does deal with combat and fighters and attacks: all areas your rule affects). I do not have problems in my campaigns with fighters being ineffective; I do not see in the rules where even more extra attacks are allowed by or are consistent with the rules. To me it would throw off balance quite quickly. But it is for your campaign and I have no say so about how you have fun. More power to you. [/QUOTE]
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