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Permanent Increases in Intelligence Question
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<blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 7182826" data-attributes="member: 6669384"><p>I must have missed that. Who decides which skills get docked? </p><p></p><p></p><p>Most computerized character generators/character sheets are based on spreadsheets, either directly as premade templates, or indirectly as emulations. </p><p></p><p>None that I've seen keep good track of when ability scores or classes change.</p><p></p><p>So you might be using a spread sheet, or something similar, without it being obvious.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As I think I mentioned (rather mockingly I'm sad to say), that argument fails when you consider the short term boosts that come from items or spells. Bull's Strength, for example, has a duration in minutes. Requiring hours or days of training to take advantage makes the spells useless.</p><p></p><p>I never suggested that anyone wait to take advantage of stat increases. They apply as soon as the situation arises when they might apply. But not all of these situations are instantly available.</p><p></p><p>All stat boosts affect the appropriately related skills the next time you use the skill. They affect all related Saves the next time the Save is called for. They affect spell DCs the next time a spell is cast.</p><p></p><p>But they don't apply to the past.</p><p></p><p>Consider a related example: A Character has a spell, such as See Invisible, held in place by Permanency. Dispelling it calls for a caster level check. But it's based on the caster's level <em>at the time the permanency was cast</em>. The caster may have gained levels since granting the ability, but those levels aren't applicable to previously cast spells.</p><p></p><p>Similarly, a long term spell, such as Glyph of Warding (Can be attached to Hallowed ground, and so last for up to a year) may require a Saving throw. The Save DC is based on the caster's ability score <em>at the time the spell was cast</em>. Ability score changes after the fact don't affect that spell Save DC.</p><p></p><p>What you are proposing would be the only rule in the game that applies retroactively. </p><p></p><p>You suggested that game balance is related to realism. "Realism" is an odd term to apply to a magical setting, by the way. We use it, but I think we mean "Logical consistency". </p><p></p><p>Anyway, game balance isn't tied to realism or believability. It's more of a question of giving an advantage to one side or another. Your rule applies almost exclusively to PCs, and tips the playing field in their favor.</p><p></p><p>Monsters and NPCs are, for the most part, static. They "come into existence" when the DM needs them, and they vanish away again after the encounter, with the rare exception of the recurring villain. They don't advance in levels, nor experience that odd situation that miraculously and permanently bumps a stat during play.</p><p></p><p>Regarding game balance, my iterative attack rule affected game balance in that it gave an advantage that applied to high BAB classes more than others, and to physical combatants more than spell casters. But that was its intent, since physical combatants tended to fall behind at higher levels. The impact of the rule increased at higher levels, by design.</p><p></p><p>That rule didn't impact realism, just game balance.</p><p></p><p>Your rule does impact "realism", which I see as a flaw, but it also impacts game balance, adding advantage to characters who already have the rules stacked in their favor.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Greenfield, post: 7182826, member: 6669384"] I must have missed that. Who decides which skills get docked? Most computerized character generators/character sheets are based on spreadsheets, either directly as premade templates, or indirectly as emulations. None that I've seen keep good track of when ability scores or classes change. So you might be using a spread sheet, or something similar, without it being obvious. As I think I mentioned (rather mockingly I'm sad to say), that argument fails when you consider the short term boosts that come from items or spells. Bull's Strength, for example, has a duration in minutes. Requiring hours or days of training to take advantage makes the spells useless. I never suggested that anyone wait to take advantage of stat increases. They apply as soon as the situation arises when they might apply. But not all of these situations are instantly available. All stat boosts affect the appropriately related skills the next time you use the skill. They affect all related Saves the next time the Save is called for. They affect spell DCs the next time a spell is cast. But they don't apply to the past. Consider a related example: A Character has a spell, such as See Invisible, held in place by Permanency. Dispelling it calls for a caster level check. But it's based on the caster's level [I]at the time the permanency was cast[/I]. The caster may have gained levels since granting the ability, but those levels aren't applicable to previously cast spells. Similarly, a long term spell, such as Glyph of Warding (Can be attached to Hallowed ground, and so last for up to a year) may require a Saving throw. The Save DC is based on the caster's ability score [I]at the time the spell was cast[/I]. Ability score changes after the fact don't affect that spell Save DC. What you are proposing would be the only rule in the game that applies retroactively. You suggested that game balance is related to realism. "Realism" is an odd term to apply to a magical setting, by the way. We use it, but I think we mean "Logical consistency". Anyway, game balance isn't tied to realism or believability. It's more of a question of giving an advantage to one side or another. Your rule applies almost exclusively to PCs, and tips the playing field in their favor. Monsters and NPCs are, for the most part, static. They "come into existence" when the DM needs them, and they vanish away again after the encounter, with the rare exception of the recurring villain. They don't advance in levels, nor experience that odd situation that miraculously and permanently bumps a stat during play. Regarding game balance, my iterative attack rule affected game balance in that it gave an advantage that applied to high BAB classes more than others, and to physical combatants more than spell casters. But that was its intent, since physical combatants tended to fall behind at higher levels. The impact of the rule increased at higher levels, by design. That rule didn't impact realism, just game balance. Your rule does impact "realism", which I see as a flaw, but it also impacts game balance, adding advantage to characters who already have the rules stacked in their favor. [/QUOTE]
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