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PHB Feats taken - RESULTS
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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 7231298" data-attributes="member: 71699"><p>Rogue is now substantially over-shadowed by this feat. Rogue Expertise gives them expertise in two skills, and another two at 6th - which is their only benefit at that level. A Fighter can spend their 6th level ASI to take this feat and gain an skill + expertise in four skills. Seeing as the Fighter is better at combat than a Rogue, I think this feat comes close to writing Rogue out of the game.</p><p></p><p>Wood Elf, Fighter, Spy</p><p>Dexterity-based fighting styles e.g. Dueling with Shield and Rapier</p><p>*Perception</p><p>*Stealth, Deception or *Investigation</p><p>Common, Elven, three other languages, Thieves' cant</p><p>Disguise Kit</p><p>*Thieves' Tools</p><p>*Athletics</p><p>Acrobatics</p><p></p><p>4th ASI</p><p>6th ASI - Trained (*s above indicate Expertise)</p><p></p><p>Depending on their Charisma, the fighter could take expertise in four skills and add Deception, which they otherwise might have skipped. As a Dexterity-based fighter, their rogue skills are as good as the Rogue. They don't have access to Reliable Talent or the Thief archetype, but their combat abilities easily make up for that. The point here is that, relative to the Rogue, the fighter hasn't even really given up anything. They get one extra ASI - at 6th - which they spent to outmatch Rogue Expertise (they gained expertise to five skills, while Rogue only gets four).</p><p></p><p>The <em>minimum</em> fix to make this feat fair on Rogues is to increase the price of expertise to 3 points. I'm feeling grumpy this morning, so I will add that written this way, the feat appears to willfully ignore something that surely everyone familiar with D&D skills through the editions knows, which is that one high-proficiency skill is worth more than two average-proficiency skills. It is better at say 6th to have Stealth at +10, than to have Stealth and Thieves Tools at +7, because very few monsters or foes will ever have Passive Perception 20, and you can always get Guidance, Help (advantage) or some other buff on checks that you can take your time over. RPGs work in curves, and getting something over the curve-at-your-level is what causes imbalance (over-shadowing, narrative-warping, trivialising).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 7231298, member: 71699"] Rogue is now substantially over-shadowed by this feat. Rogue Expertise gives them expertise in two skills, and another two at 6th - which is their only benefit at that level. A Fighter can spend their 6th level ASI to take this feat and gain an skill + expertise in four skills. Seeing as the Fighter is better at combat than a Rogue, I think this feat comes close to writing Rogue out of the game. Wood Elf, Fighter, Spy Dexterity-based fighting styles e.g. Dueling with Shield and Rapier *Perception *Stealth, Deception or *Investigation Common, Elven, three other languages, Thieves' cant Disguise Kit *Thieves' Tools *Athletics Acrobatics 4th ASI 6th ASI - Trained (*s above indicate Expertise) Depending on their Charisma, the fighter could take expertise in four skills and add Deception, which they otherwise might have skipped. As a Dexterity-based fighter, their rogue skills are as good as the Rogue. They don't have access to Reliable Talent or the Thief archetype, but their combat abilities easily make up for that. The point here is that, relative to the Rogue, the fighter hasn't even really given up anything. They get one extra ASI - at 6th - which they spent to outmatch Rogue Expertise (they gained expertise to five skills, while Rogue only gets four). The [I]minimum[/I] fix to make this feat fair on Rogues is to increase the price of expertise to 3 points. I'm feeling grumpy this morning, so I will add that written this way, the feat appears to willfully ignore something that surely everyone familiar with D&D skills through the editions knows, which is that one high-proficiency skill is worth more than two average-proficiency skills. It is better at say 6th to have Stealth at +10, than to have Stealth and Thieves Tools at +7, because very few monsters or foes will ever have Passive Perception 20, and you can always get Guidance, Help (advantage) or some other buff on checks that you can take your time over. RPGs work in curves, and getting something over the curve-at-your-level is what causes imbalance (over-shadowing, narrative-warping, trivialising). [/QUOTE]
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