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<blockquote data-quote="ro" data-source="post: 7231757" data-attributes="member: 6890747"><p>Yes, getting more skills is not always better, and the benefit tapers off the more you get. Nevertheless, for a skill-monkey whose goal is to get all the skills anyway, this helps out a lot.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>All expertise skills will improve greatly with proficiency bonus, even when not in a preferred stat.</p><p></p><p>Making expertise cost more implies that the Knowledge Domain's 1st level feature is overpowered relative to other Cleric Domains. Do you believe that this is the case?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, somewhat overshadowed by a Fighter who chooses not to improve his fighting. You mentioned Rogues getting Expertise at 1st level, but you left out Sneak Attack (and Thieves' Cant). At 6th, the Rogue gets two more expertise, and the Fighter gets his ASI/Feat, say Trained for 5 expertise.</p><p></p><p>So the balance comes to: How does Fighting Style, 1 expertise, and Second Wind compare to Sneak Attack and Thieves' Cant? The requirements for Sneak Attack are pretty easy to meet for a 6th level Rogue, and 3d6 (10.5) extra damage is nothing to sneeze at.</p><p></p><p><strong>Rogues v. Fighters</strong> (6th Level)</p><p></p><p>Let's add in the 5th level features, Extra Attack for Fighter and Uncanny Dodge for Rogue, to help the comparison:</p><p></p><p><strong>(R)</strong> Sneak Attack (usually once per turn, but could be more) +3d6 (<strong>+10.5</strong>)</p><p>v. <strong>(F)</strong> Extra Attack (once per turn) Greatsword +2d6 (<strong>+7</strong>) and Great Weapon Fighting (+1.3 on each attack = <strong>+2.7</strong>)</p><p>= <strong>(R)</strong> Sneak Attack (<strong>+10.5</strong>) v. <strong>(F)</strong> Extra Attack + Fighting Style (<strong>+9.7</strong>)</p><p><strong>(R)</strong> Uncanny Dodge <strong>1/2 damage per round</strong> v. <strong>(F)</strong> Second Wind 1d10+6 (<strong>11.5</strong>) HP <strong>per short rest</strong></p><p>= unless the Rogue can only Uncanny Dodge once per short rest, it is significantly better on saving HP</p><p><strong>(R)</strong> Thieves' Cant is a language probably, not a full skill.</p><p><strong>(R)</strong> Rogue has <strong>4</strong> expertise. <strong>(F)</strong> Fighter has <strong>5</strong> expertise.</p><p></p><p>So from these abilities:</p><p><strong>Rogues</strong> have better damage than Fighters</p><p><strong>Rogues</strong> have much better damage mitigation than Fighters</p><p>Rogues get an extra language (1 point), but <strong>Fighters</strong> have expertise in one skill!</p><p></p><p>Taking Trained for 5 expertise, <strong>Fighters are weaker than Rogues.</strong></p><p></p><p>Increasing expertise to a 3-point cost results in two less expertise for the Fighter but the gain of a language to counter Thieves' Cant:</p><p><strong>Rogue</strong> has better damage</p><p><strong>Rogue</strong> has better defense</p><p><strong>Rogue</strong> has extra expertise.</p><p>Fighter... doesn't have better/extra anything.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, Wisdom save is only later on. I'll give you that.</p><p></p><p>All this is to say that I don't think expertise in this feat is unbalanced. But I think it is fine to keep a note there saying that DMs can adjust that if it causes problems at their tables. As discussing any feat, we always have to remember that there is always a trade off: the opportunity cost of the best other feat or +2 ASI to your most important stat(s).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ro, post: 7231757, member: 6890747"] Yes, getting more skills is not always better, and the benefit tapers off the more you get. Nevertheless, for a skill-monkey whose goal is to get all the skills anyway, this helps out a lot. All expertise skills will improve greatly with proficiency bonus, even when not in a preferred stat. Making expertise cost more implies that the Knowledge Domain's 1st level feature is overpowered relative to other Cleric Domains. Do you believe that this is the case? Yes, somewhat overshadowed by a Fighter who chooses not to improve his fighting. You mentioned Rogues getting Expertise at 1st level, but you left out Sneak Attack (and Thieves' Cant). At 6th, the Rogue gets two more expertise, and the Fighter gets his ASI/Feat, say Trained for 5 expertise. So the balance comes to: How does Fighting Style, 1 expertise, and Second Wind compare to Sneak Attack and Thieves' Cant? The requirements for Sneak Attack are pretty easy to meet for a 6th level Rogue, and 3d6 (10.5) extra damage is nothing to sneeze at. [B]Rogues v. Fighters[/B] (6th Level) Let's add in the 5th level features, Extra Attack for Fighter and Uncanny Dodge for Rogue, to help the comparison: [B](R)[/B] Sneak Attack (usually once per turn, but could be more) +3d6 ([B]+10.5[/B]) v. [B](F)[/B] Extra Attack (once per turn) Greatsword +2d6 ([B]+7[/B]) and Great Weapon Fighting (+1.3 on each attack = [B]+2.7[/B]) = [B](R)[/B] Sneak Attack ([B]+10.5[/B]) v. [B](F)[/B] Extra Attack + Fighting Style ([B]+9.7[/B]) [B](R)[/B] Uncanny Dodge [B]1/2 damage per round[/B] v. [B](F)[/B] Second Wind 1d10+6 ([B]11.5[/B]) HP [B]per short rest[/B] = unless the Rogue can only Uncanny Dodge once per short rest, it is significantly better on saving HP [B](R)[/B] Thieves' Cant is a language probably, not a full skill. [B](R)[/B] Rogue has [B]4[/B] expertise. [B](F)[/B] Fighter has [B]5[/B] expertise. So from these abilities: [B]Rogues[/B] have better damage than Fighters [B]Rogues[/B] have much better damage mitigation than Fighters Rogues get an extra language (1 point), but [B]Fighters[/B] have expertise in one skill! Taking Trained for 5 expertise, [B]Fighters are weaker than Rogues.[/B] Increasing expertise to a 3-point cost results in two less expertise for the Fighter but the gain of a language to counter Thieves' Cant: [B]Rogue[/B] has better damage [B]Rogue[/B] has better defense [B]Rogue[/B] has extra expertise. Fighter... doesn't have better/extra anything. Yeah, Wisdom save is only later on. I'll give you that. All this is to say that I don't think expertise in this feat is unbalanced. But I think it is fine to keep a note there saying that DMs can adjust that if it causes problems at their tables. As discussing any feat, we always have to remember that there is always a trade off: the opportunity cost of the best other feat or +2 ASI to your most important stat(s). [/QUOTE]
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