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PHB Feats taken - RESULTS
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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 7231953" data-attributes="member: 71699"><p>As others have said, this will lead to a general problem against bounded accuracy.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Blessings of Knowledge has the important constraint that it only applies expertise to Arcana, History, Nature or Religion. Those don't impinge on the core skills for Rogue.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Thieves Cant is a ribbon. Sneak Attack is reasonable, but doesn't compete with Fighters once they have their Extra Attacks, bonus action attacks (from various sources), and possible reaction attacks (e.g. Riposte). It isn't correct that Rogue out-damages Fighter.</p><p></p><p><strong>6th Rogue</strong> with Rapier, Studded Leather, 18 Dex (ASI), AC 16</p><p><strong>6th Fighter</strong> with Rapier and Shield, Breastplate, 16 Dex, AC 18, Shield Master</p><p></p><p>Rogue almost always one attack at +7, d8+4+3d6 = 8-30</p><p>Fighter two attacks at +6 (with advantage, opponent is prone), d8+5 (dueling) + 2d8+5 (superiority die) = 13-34</p><p></p><p>Expected AC 15, Rogue hits 0.65, Fighter hits 0.84 (advantage). Rogue expects about 12 damage, Fighter expects about 20. Shield Master is strong, but Fighter could be exploiting PAM or GWM and doing more than 20. And Fighter can at some point use Action Surge to spike their damage much higher (in practice Action Surge beats out Assassinate).</p><p></p><p>Uncanny Dodge is beneficial. Foe has an expected +5 or +6 to hit. Rogue is hit about 0.5 of the time. Fighter is hit about 0.4 of the time. Most foes are multi-attacking at 6th level. So Rogue mitigates one to 0.25 but not the other. In practice, Cunning Action for Dash or Disengage is the Rogues' greatest ally.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The analysis omits multi-attack and the superiority of the Fighter archetype features to those of Rogue. We need to remember that the Rogue is likely spending their 4th level ASI most profitably on Dexterity, while the Fighter can take Shield Master (which expertise in Athletics will make godly, as an aside). Thieves' Cant is a ribbon - I'm surprised you're including it at all - but Fighter has it from Spy in any case.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Fighter out fights Rogue, and has an additional skill with expertise (five to Rogues' four).</p><p></p><p></p><p>The question most of all is what your design goals are? If it satisfies your design goals to make this feat much stronger and over-shadow Rogues, then you should do it. That's different from arguing that the feat is balanced or unbalanced. I think balance in RPGs is all about three things</p><p></p><p><strong>1) Broaden options</strong> (make many different strategies viable)</p><p><strong>2) Don't warp the narrative</strong> (nothing that forces every scenario to warp around it)</p><p><strong>3) Let them shine</strong> (no overshadowing)</p><p></p><p>I think Trained narrows options by making Rogue less viable, while broadening options by giving other classes more to play with. My guess is, we lose more from loss of Rogues than we gain for other classes. Trained might turn out to warp the narrative, because it might pressure bounded accuracy. DMs might have to react by pushing up all their numbers. Finally, Trained clearly does not let Rogues shine. It lets Fighters (and other classes, no doubt) shine more, but for me the overshadowing of Rogues doesn't look well repaid because those other classes almost all already have their own ways to shine.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 7231953, member: 71699"] As others have said, this will lead to a general problem against bounded accuracy. Blessings of Knowledge has the important constraint that it only applies expertise to Arcana, History, Nature or Religion. Those don't impinge on the core skills for Rogue. Thieves Cant is a ribbon. Sneak Attack is reasonable, but doesn't compete with Fighters once they have their Extra Attacks, bonus action attacks (from various sources), and possible reaction attacks (e.g. Riposte). It isn't correct that Rogue out-damages Fighter. [B]6th Rogue[/B] with Rapier, Studded Leather, 18 Dex (ASI), AC 16 [B]6th Fighter[/B] with Rapier and Shield, Breastplate, 16 Dex, AC 18, Shield Master Rogue almost always one attack at +7, d8+4+3d6 = 8-30 Fighter two attacks at +6 (with advantage, opponent is prone), d8+5 (dueling) + 2d8+5 (superiority die) = 13-34 Expected AC 15, Rogue hits 0.65, Fighter hits 0.84 (advantage). Rogue expects about 12 damage, Fighter expects about 20. Shield Master is strong, but Fighter could be exploiting PAM or GWM and doing more than 20. And Fighter can at some point use Action Surge to spike their damage much higher (in practice Action Surge beats out Assassinate). Uncanny Dodge is beneficial. Foe has an expected +5 or +6 to hit. Rogue is hit about 0.5 of the time. Fighter is hit about 0.4 of the time. Most foes are multi-attacking at 6th level. So Rogue mitigates one to 0.25 but not the other. In practice, Cunning Action for Dash or Disengage is the Rogues' greatest ally. The analysis omits multi-attack and the superiority of the Fighter archetype features to those of Rogue. We need to remember that the Rogue is likely spending their 4th level ASI most profitably on Dexterity, while the Fighter can take Shield Master (which expertise in Athletics will make godly, as an aside). Thieves' Cant is a ribbon - I'm surprised you're including it at all - but Fighter has it from Spy in any case. Fighter out fights Rogue, and has an additional skill with expertise (five to Rogues' four). The question most of all is what your design goals are? If it satisfies your design goals to make this feat much stronger and over-shadow Rogues, then you should do it. That's different from arguing that the feat is balanced or unbalanced. I think balance in RPGs is all about three things [B]1) Broaden options[/B] (make many different strategies viable) [B]2) Don't warp the narrative[/B] (nothing that forces every scenario to warp around it) [B]3) Let them shine[/B] (no overshadowing) I think Trained narrows options by making Rogue less viable, while broadening options by giving other classes more to play with. My guess is, we lose more from loss of Rogues than we gain for other classes. Trained might turn out to warp the narrative, because it might pressure bounded accuracy. DMs might have to react by pushing up all their numbers. Finally, Trained clearly does not let Rogues shine. It lets Fighters (and other classes, no doubt) shine more, but for me the overshadowing of Rogues doesn't look well repaid because those other classes almost all already have their own ways to shine. [/QUOTE]
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