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<< PLANESCAPE >> How do you defeat the Lady of Pain?
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<blockquote data-quote="Trickstergod" data-source="post: 1367372" data-attributes="member: 10825"><p>Canon-wise? You're out of luck. </p><p></p><p>Theory-wise? Well, I don't think that's too off-base. Even a mountain can be ground to dust or swallowed up, with enough time. The point is, though, it's not exactly feasible for an individual or, say, an adventuring party, to do. </p><p></p><p>First you have to define the Lady to some degree, in a way that makes sense with what's already established; i.e., that she's nigh-on omnipotent within Sigil. </p><p></p><p>As has already been mentioned, you could view her as a manifestation of Sigil itself. In which case, you want to kill the Lady, you have to destroy the city. As most of the folk who've attacked Sigil want it for their own, this essentially means that she's invulnerable. The necessary resources to destroy Sigil, which would be vast, make it an infeasible move to do due to the negligable benefit one would get from destroying the city. </p><p></p><p>Personally, I'm not much keen on the idea of overgods. However, one theory of my own is that the Lady of Pain is, quite possibly, not one figure, but many. She represents a number of powerful deities who keep Sigil neutral. This is why it's effectively impossible to defeat her or take out the city; she's probably, for all intents and purposes in this example, the will of an entire pantheon and all its divine servants (though those servants likely don't know that they're actively working to keep Sigil safe - only the deities involved would). She can maze an army of fiends or flay Aoskar because, quite simply, the concerted effort of multiple gods isn't exactly easy to face off against. </p><p></p><p>Then, and this is possibly the most Planescape-esque explanation for it, you cap off the Lady of Pain with belief. You tie her down with worshippers, thus defining her, bit by bit. You begin espousing the idea that the Lady of Pain isn't the end all, be all of power, preaching that she, too, is as mortal as anything else in the universe. You start preventing certain types of traffic from getting into Sigil - say, stymie the arrival of outsiders from Baator, for example (not entirely impossible if you were, say, Asmodeus - but he likely wouldn't do that, as it would put him at a severe disadvantage, at least initially, even if the idea eventually worked out, which it might not). Change the fundamental nature of of Sigil or the Lady of Pain, in one way or another, and you've opened her up to destruction. </p><p></p><p>All of these are somewhat feasible, and show why she's never been seriously challenged. The effort it would take to destroy Sigil would likely destroy whomever made the attempt in the process. A unified pantheon (perhaps not in the strictest sense of Norse or Egyptian, for example, but a collection all the same) of deities are certainly going to be able to do some truly fantastic things. Trying to change the beliefs one has about the Lady of Pain or Sigil on the scale necessary would be a massive endeavor, and the sort of individuals who could swing Sigil away from neutrality by cutting out a certain type of traffic (archons, modrons, whatever) wouldn't want to because of the disadvantage it would put them at. </p><p></p><p>They're all fairly god-like undertakings, that probably aren't going to be done by just hacking and hewing. </p><p></p><p>I for one don't think the Lady of Pain should be any more invulnerable than a deity, and everyone has their sprig of mistletoe or Achilles Heel to bring them low, so giving some way to destroy her or Sigil isn't too out of line, but it should be in some way that's near impossible to accomplish, that even an army of fiends and a god or two wouldn't likely succeed at.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Trickstergod, post: 1367372, member: 10825"] Canon-wise? You're out of luck. Theory-wise? Well, I don't think that's too off-base. Even a mountain can be ground to dust or swallowed up, with enough time. The point is, though, it's not exactly feasible for an individual or, say, an adventuring party, to do. First you have to define the Lady to some degree, in a way that makes sense with what's already established; i.e., that she's nigh-on omnipotent within Sigil. As has already been mentioned, you could view her as a manifestation of Sigil itself. In which case, you want to kill the Lady, you have to destroy the city. As most of the folk who've attacked Sigil want it for their own, this essentially means that she's invulnerable. The necessary resources to destroy Sigil, which would be vast, make it an infeasible move to do due to the negligable benefit one would get from destroying the city. Personally, I'm not much keen on the idea of overgods. However, one theory of my own is that the Lady of Pain is, quite possibly, not one figure, but many. She represents a number of powerful deities who keep Sigil neutral. This is why it's effectively impossible to defeat her or take out the city; she's probably, for all intents and purposes in this example, the will of an entire pantheon and all its divine servants (though those servants likely don't know that they're actively working to keep Sigil safe - only the deities involved would). She can maze an army of fiends or flay Aoskar because, quite simply, the concerted effort of multiple gods isn't exactly easy to face off against. Then, and this is possibly the most Planescape-esque explanation for it, you cap off the Lady of Pain with belief. You tie her down with worshippers, thus defining her, bit by bit. You begin espousing the idea that the Lady of Pain isn't the end all, be all of power, preaching that she, too, is as mortal as anything else in the universe. You start preventing certain types of traffic from getting into Sigil - say, stymie the arrival of outsiders from Baator, for example (not entirely impossible if you were, say, Asmodeus - but he likely wouldn't do that, as it would put him at a severe disadvantage, at least initially, even if the idea eventually worked out, which it might not). Change the fundamental nature of of Sigil or the Lady of Pain, in one way or another, and you've opened her up to destruction. All of these are somewhat feasible, and show why she's never been seriously challenged. The effort it would take to destroy Sigil would likely destroy whomever made the attempt in the process. A unified pantheon (perhaps not in the strictest sense of Norse or Egyptian, for example, but a collection all the same) of deities are certainly going to be able to do some truly fantastic things. Trying to change the beliefs one has about the Lady of Pain or Sigil on the scale necessary would be a massive endeavor, and the sort of individuals who could swing Sigil away from neutrality by cutting out a certain type of traffic (archons, modrons, whatever) wouldn't want to because of the disadvantage it would put them at. They're all fairly god-like undertakings, that probably aren't going to be done by just hacking and hewing. I for one don't think the Lady of Pain should be any more invulnerable than a deity, and everyone has their sprig of mistletoe or Achilles Heel to bring them low, so giving some way to destroy her or Sigil isn't too out of line, but it should be in some way that's near impossible to accomplish, that even an army of fiends and a god or two wouldn't likely succeed at. [/QUOTE]
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