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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8974276" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>[USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] How would you even do illusionism in a game like BitD? Or Apocalypse World/Dungeon World? The players roll all the dice, the GM has prep, but in none of those games does anything really exist until someone brings it 'on stage' so to speak (Doskvol is generally assumed to reflect the book, but nothing there is cast in stone). A GM in these games could 'softball', giving the players situations they're going to handle without a lot of threat. Heck, technically in the PbtA games the GM could basically hand you whatever you want without a fight, but it wouldn't be playing with any respect to what the game is intended to do, nor fun. I just do not see how 'illusionism' is really possible. </p><p></p><p>There's long been this charge that the GM just frames whatever THEY feel like and because the players supposedly then never get the choices they want that they're just puppets. This is not a charge which anyone with any experience playing one of these games with anything approaching a decent GM would ever make though. I mean, that won't even be possible, at all, in BitD. The players pick scores, pure and simple. All the GM is doing is rolling out scenes that describe the dangerous, uncertain, fraught moments of the score. Sure, they can pick what those are, to a degree, but it would be appallingly clear if the GM simply did that in accord with some sort of personal agenda and not with respect to the stated goals, actions, etc. of the players. It would be exactly like a D&D game where the DM says "no, no, you didn't like the lefthand passage, you went right, trust me!" </p><p></p><p>Dungeon World gets a bit slippery because it apes the forms of D&D pretty closely, so there's a danger that players may not notice, that the game could slip into a kind of faux dungeon crawl. However that won't likely happen when any of the players are familiar with other PbtA games.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8974276, member: 82106"] [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] How would you even do illusionism in a game like BitD? Or Apocalypse World/Dungeon World? The players roll all the dice, the GM has prep, but in none of those games does anything really exist until someone brings it 'on stage' so to speak (Doskvol is generally assumed to reflect the book, but nothing there is cast in stone). A GM in these games could 'softball', giving the players situations they're going to handle without a lot of threat. Heck, technically in the PbtA games the GM could basically hand you whatever you want without a fight, but it wouldn't be playing with any respect to what the game is intended to do, nor fun. I just do not see how 'illusionism' is really possible. There's long been this charge that the GM just frames whatever THEY feel like and because the players supposedly then never get the choices they want that they're just puppets. This is not a charge which anyone with any experience playing one of these games with anything approaching a decent GM would ever make though. I mean, that won't even be possible, at all, in BitD. The players pick scores, pure and simple. All the GM is doing is rolling out scenes that describe the dangerous, uncertain, fraught moments of the score. Sure, they can pick what those are, to a degree, but it would be appallingly clear if the GM simply did that in accord with some sort of personal agenda and not with respect to the stated goals, actions, etc. of the players. It would be exactly like a D&D game where the DM says "no, no, you didn't like the lefthand passage, you went right, trust me!" Dungeon World gets a bit slippery because it apes the forms of D&D pretty closely, so there's a danger that players may not notice, that the game could slip into a kind of faux dungeon crawl. However that won't likely happen when any of the players are familiar with other PbtA games. [/QUOTE]
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