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Players building v players exploring a campaign
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7121770" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>*sigh*</p><p></p><p>I don't dislike the style at all. I just don't think it actually accomplishes what it was initially (and still frequently) billed as accomplishing. I consider the situation similar to my relationship with say Object Oriented Programming or Agile development. Neither of those things are bad, and in fact they are actually very good. But they don't necessarily accomplish want their guru's stated that they would accomplish prior to the industry getting lots of actual experience with them, and many of the initial claims regarding them look ridiculous or plain wrong headed in the light of actual observation rather than theory crafting. But that being said, many of the Indy game inspired mechanical innovations are Good Things, greatly to be lauded and seriously to be considered or leveraged when designing a system. Just don't expect them to solve every problem any more than 'Realism' was the solution for every problem when it was fetishized in the mid to late 80's.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>With respect, please consider that "believable" is an aesthetic concern entirely and completely different from the aesthetic of narrative. A great many well constructed narratives are not "believable" in the sense you seem to be using it here, and often we find that we must choose between a story that is believable and one which has a tight narrative structure. For example, I am an huge massive fan of Victor Hugo, but why should it be <em>believable</em> about Jean Val Jean scaling a random wall in Paris, only to land practically in the lap of a random stranger whose life he saved in an entirely different city years before, and for that random stranger to now offer the perfect sanctuary that Jean Val Jean needs for the young child Cosette. To find that 'believable' you must agree that the real world is one of providential mercy as the fictional story suggests. "Believability" isn't the point of that narrative structure, and what is "believable" is a subjective aesthetic. The point is to fire off a plot point setup unnoticed and unsuspected in the scene where Jean Val Jean rescues the man from the cart leading to the experience of wonder and joy in the reader.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Of course the entire world is a façade put up for the PCs. Only by artifice do we disguise our artifice.</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure we share enough language to meaningfully communicate with each other on this. Your response to me seems to continually go off on tangents and into areas that I wonder what you are thinking. I can only assume this is because you had the same response to my earlier writing. Let's assume for the moment neither of us understands the other at all, right back to your assumption I don't like the style. Then maybe we can reset and try again.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, it's clear you have no idea what I'm talking about. Of course players can 'surprise' you by being creative and attempting things you didn't anticipate. But rather than accepting that you don't know what I'm trying to say (whether because I said it badly or you aren't trying), your again defaulting to denigrating and insulting.</p><p></p><p>Fundamentally, you are completely off base here. For example, in my setting 'adventurer' is not even a recognized profession, and if you used the word, most NPCs in the setting would assume you were referring to a wealthy tourist because in my setting 'adventurer' means 'tourist'. PC's are generally never referred to as 'adventurers' (unless they happen to be wealthy trill seekers), do not act like 'adventurers' (and would be arrested if they tried), and are never 'rootless' in the sense you mean it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7121770, member: 4937"] *sigh* I don't dislike the style at all. I just don't think it actually accomplishes what it was initially (and still frequently) billed as accomplishing. I consider the situation similar to my relationship with say Object Oriented Programming or Agile development. Neither of those things are bad, and in fact they are actually very good. But they don't necessarily accomplish want their guru's stated that they would accomplish prior to the industry getting lots of actual experience with them, and many of the initial claims regarding them look ridiculous or plain wrong headed in the light of actual observation rather than theory crafting. But that being said, many of the Indy game inspired mechanical innovations are Good Things, greatly to be lauded and seriously to be considered or leveraged when designing a system. Just don't expect them to solve every problem any more than 'Realism' was the solution for every problem when it was fetishized in the mid to late 80's. With respect, please consider that "believable" is an aesthetic concern entirely and completely different from the aesthetic of narrative. A great many well constructed narratives are not "believable" in the sense you seem to be using it here, and often we find that we must choose between a story that is believable and one which has a tight narrative structure. For example, I am an huge massive fan of Victor Hugo, but why should it be [I]believable[/I] about Jean Val Jean scaling a random wall in Paris, only to land practically in the lap of a random stranger whose life he saved in an entirely different city years before, and for that random stranger to now offer the perfect sanctuary that Jean Val Jean needs for the young child Cosette. To find that 'believable' you must agree that the real world is one of providential mercy as the fictional story suggests. "Believability" isn't the point of that narrative structure, and what is "believable" is a subjective aesthetic. The point is to fire off a plot point setup unnoticed and unsuspected in the scene where Jean Val Jean rescues the man from the cart leading to the experience of wonder and joy in the reader. Of course the entire world is a façade put up for the PCs. Only by artifice do we disguise our artifice. I'm not sure we share enough language to meaningfully communicate with each other on this. Your response to me seems to continually go off on tangents and into areas that I wonder what you are thinking. I can only assume this is because you had the same response to my earlier writing. Let's assume for the moment neither of us understands the other at all, right back to your assumption I don't like the style. Then maybe we can reset and try again. Again, it's clear you have no idea what I'm talking about. Of course players can 'surprise' you by being creative and attempting things you didn't anticipate. But rather than accepting that you don't know what I'm trying to say (whether because I said it badly or you aren't trying), your again defaulting to denigrating and insulting. Fundamentally, you are completely off base here. For example, in my setting 'adventurer' is not even a recognized profession, and if you used the word, most NPCs in the setting would assume you were referring to a wealthy tourist because in my setting 'adventurer' means 'tourist'. PC's are generally never referred to as 'adventurers' (unless they happen to be wealthy trill seekers), do not act like 'adventurers' (and would be arrested if they tried), and are never 'rootless' in the sense you mean it. [/QUOTE]
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