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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7628235" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>That it's a according to preference.</p><p></p><p>Firstly, I agree with the way you've presented this -- so no issues at all with how you've explained the difference in approach. That said, the choice is really a matter of preference. There's two different kinds of games going on here, with different play goals, and that means that it's the play goals that are making the choice, not the actual mechanic. So, in that sense, I think your question is a bit misformed -- it's aimed at the wrong thing. It should be aimed at what are you accomplishing with your choice -- what play does it enable -- rather than asking about the mechanic used. Mechanics are just tools, after all.</p><p></p><p>I stand a foot in both. I enjoy the play of 5e, which is very GM determines heavy, but moderate a good bit towards letting players have more control over outcomes, especially in cases where build choices have been made to enable such. Very lenient on 'saying yes', and very attentive to the goal of an action, not just the approach (thin declaration, if you will). I dislike gotchas. However, in 5e, it's the job of the GM to narrate outcomes, so I do, even if I keep a weather eye out on making sure I don't invalidate player intentions (too often). On the other hand, I also like Blades in the Dark, which is very much player narrated outcomes on success of the mechanics. As a GM, I prefer the low-prep, heavy in-session work of the latter a bit more. My players prefer the former more. We compromise by playing mostly 5e with the larger group and Blades with a subset. I get my itches scratched, and so do my players. </p><p></p><p>As for why my players seem to prefer a thinner declaration? A few reasons. One, they trust me to not be unnecessarily mean (but definitely necessarily mean) and like the scramble to react to situations. They like the tactical game a good bit (most also have or still do wargame), and that's full of thin declarations (the mechanics provide outcomes, not players or GMs). I think they also like the discovery of a story rather than the creation of one? That's not very clear, so let me try to clarify. They seem to like the idea that they're affecting a larger plot they didn't have input into prior to play. This is very much a feel thing, but they seem to like foiling whatever thing the GM (often me) came up with. That there was a story without them <em>that they then changed</em>. And part of getting this feeling, I suppose, is to make the right thin declarations to get the GM to narrate that success. There's an element of puzzle solving there. This sounds bad, so remember this isn't a hard, "this is the reason" thing, but rather a tendency in a group that also, largely, enjoys playing the other way. But, I think it's the tendency that keeps 5e at the top spot of the play roster.</p><p></p><p>Hmm. I think I have rambled enough, for now.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7628235, member: 16814"] That it's a according to preference. Firstly, I agree with the way you've presented this -- so no issues at all with how you've explained the difference in approach. That said, the choice is really a matter of preference. There's two different kinds of games going on here, with different play goals, and that means that it's the play goals that are making the choice, not the actual mechanic. So, in that sense, I think your question is a bit misformed -- it's aimed at the wrong thing. It should be aimed at what are you accomplishing with your choice -- what play does it enable -- rather than asking about the mechanic used. Mechanics are just tools, after all. I stand a foot in both. I enjoy the play of 5e, which is very GM determines heavy, but moderate a good bit towards letting players have more control over outcomes, especially in cases where build choices have been made to enable such. Very lenient on 'saying yes', and very attentive to the goal of an action, not just the approach (thin declaration, if you will). I dislike gotchas. However, in 5e, it's the job of the GM to narrate outcomes, so I do, even if I keep a weather eye out on making sure I don't invalidate player intentions (too often). On the other hand, I also like Blades in the Dark, which is very much player narrated outcomes on success of the mechanics. As a GM, I prefer the low-prep, heavy in-session work of the latter a bit more. My players prefer the former more. We compromise by playing mostly 5e with the larger group and Blades with a subset. I get my itches scratched, and so do my players. As for why my players seem to prefer a thinner declaration? A few reasons. One, they trust me to not be unnecessarily mean (but definitely necessarily mean) and like the scramble to react to situations. They like the tactical game a good bit (most also have or still do wargame), and that's full of thin declarations (the mechanics provide outcomes, not players or GMs). I think they also like the discovery of a story rather than the creation of one? That's not very clear, so let me try to clarify. They seem to like the idea that they're affecting a larger plot they didn't have input into prior to play. This is very much a feel thing, but they seem to like foiling whatever thing the GM (often me) came up with. That there was a story without them [I]that they then changed[/I]. And part of getting this feeling, I suppose, is to make the right thin declarations to get the GM to narrate that success. There's an element of puzzle solving there. This sounds bad, so remember this isn't a hard, "this is the reason" thing, but rather a tendency in a group that also, largely, enjoys playing the other way. But, I think it's the tendency that keeps 5e at the top spot of the play roster. Hmm. I think I have rambled enough, for now. [/QUOTE]
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