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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7294610" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>Ovinomancer</p><p></p><p>First, its hard to imagine you actually looked back at what i wrote about indie games and came away with one subset using one specific mechanic, since i have referenced them multiple times through this thread in different contexts.</p><p></p><p>Second, it is not hard to imagine that if you looked back at that one reference that you again make the same error you did the first time - although you seem to have shifted a bit. I referenced a mechanic where the ROLL determines whether there is something to find in the scene. You then mistook that or mistranslated that or misconstrued that into a case where it is DIRECT PLAYER AUTHORSHIP (the spend 30 results thingy) but now you seem to find a middle route which may actually agree with what i said, but its not clear that your intent now is to refer to "GM" or "players" as the author in this latest reference. Your previous statement about games where players spend etc is a subset of indie games which have the roll able to represent success not from the perspective of a pre-defined, pre-fabbed GM menu of possibilities in that scene. That was the mistake you already made once.</p><p></p><p>third, you have a marvelously limited view of my posts and even yours. no doubt that helps with whatever it is that you think you are doing.</p><p></p><p>but above you say "The only difference is that I actually ask them to state what actions they're taking and what they're looking to accomplish with those actions and not just drop dice and name a line on their character sheet. " </p><p></p><p>yet in the recent "I examine the altar" short list i said that none of those provided sufficient information and that i would ask them a leading question from it to move with answering it... but i did point out that the skill they were choosing provided me with some information on what they could get from that effort.</p><p></p><p>now you say i haven't given examples, now you suggest the difference is between your way and "just drop dice and name a line on their character sheet. " and again go on about how you aren't at all arguing those two combined are not compatible? </p><p></p><p>As for the "recently" point of your misunderstanding, from my very first post in this thread 25 pages ago...</p><p></p><p>"But, if a character has done the "search action 100000 times in many different settings and had his Gm say "roll it this way" then i do not see the harm in a player saying "i search over there and my roll is..." </p><p></p><p>In that example you may be able to admit several things are established.</p><p></p><p>1 - A large body of experience between player and Gm for this kind of action and resolution in their game.</p><p>2 - a statement from the character of an action being taken and even the "where" it is being taken, so no question about placement.</p><p>3 - then a statement of roll added by the player (obviously the ... is meant to cover the statement of roll result and type.)</p><p></p><p>yet you come back to your current state of uncertainty...</p><p></p><p>But let me be clear...</p><p></p><p>In my games, FOR RESOLUTION OF A ROLL/TASK you need to tell me what your character is doing, but that does not need to include specifics as to the specific physical nature of the activity in all cases. You can say "i search over there" just like you can say "i craft a sword" or "i try and talk the bartender into free drinks" or "i examine the altar" (insufficient info there likely as it does not clarify "from where") etc and which skill you are using and i can resolve that for you. </p><p></p><p>I do not require "drag my knife along the mortar seams" or "i toss blue beans into the room" for your search roll anymore than i need a blow-by-blow of the sequence you use in forging (do you roll then quench or do you flame then pound then fold - is it fasten then zip of zip then fasten MR Garibaldi.)</p><p></p><p>i also do not require a specific stated goal in the vast majority of actions for two reasons</p><p></p><p>1 - "i climb the tree" will be resolved the same way... regardless of "why" you are climbing the tree. "I search over there" does not really need to know what you hope to find just what is found if anything. i can actually say that in my games the number of times characters found something completely different than what they were looking for is significant and a lot of fun. </p><p></p><p>2 - In the vast majority of cases, if there is a clearly defined goal, it is obvious in the context of the scene. "i search over there" does not pop out of the blue when they camp by the fire... it occurs in a scene that gives it context that more clearly highlioghts not only "where there is" but also "why are we searching" even if it is just "to see if there is something of note in that pile of bones"</p><p></p><p>So, to be clear since you seem deadlocked and determined to see it within your goal and method rigid framework...</p><p></p><p>I do not require an overt statement of goal - because goal is not needed to determine the success or failure of an action especially when player and GM both have a strong foundation of experience with resolution in the game.</p><p></p><p>i do not require "method" in the way you or perhaps others describe (one example being the knife mortar thingy) as neither of us needs to attempt to portray what a skilled master at ABC does to resolve that action. As we have seen here, GMs in my experience but also on this board, seem to have widely different standards for what qualifies (for secret doors is it "dagger along mortar approach or flour along edges looking for gusts and then i will let you guess what the answer means maybe with second roll" vs for crafting "i use my forge and anvil to make... but does not seem to be a guess about whether or not you got a good sword or not?") </p><p></p><p>"I climb the tree", "i pick the lock" "i search over there" along with statement of ability and proficiency is enough to give me the ability to resolve the action in the vast majority of cases and in the ones where its not, i simply ask more info along the way during the description turning the "resolution" into an interactive thing, not so much a flowchart of [state goal] [state method] [hit GM play button] with a branch for [roll needed yes-no].</p><p></p><p>ASIDE - also as stated, in the cases where players don't know the specifics, they give similar descriptions and then wait for me the GM to give them the rolls needed etc. Not unlike the normal "wait for gm" approach but still without the more overt method and goal declarations - just conversationally.</p><p></p><p>For several reasons, i doubt this will help much or that we will agree on much in this overall subject at all so its good there are so many different flavors oc ice cream in this RPG buffet.</p><p></p><p>Enjoy your games.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7294610, member: 6919838"] Ovinomancer First, its hard to imagine you actually looked back at what i wrote about indie games and came away with one subset using one specific mechanic, since i have referenced them multiple times through this thread in different contexts. Second, it is not hard to imagine that if you looked back at that one reference that you again make the same error you did the first time - although you seem to have shifted a bit. I referenced a mechanic where the ROLL determines whether there is something to find in the scene. You then mistook that or mistranslated that or misconstrued that into a case where it is DIRECT PLAYER AUTHORSHIP (the spend 30 results thingy) but now you seem to find a middle route which may actually agree with what i said, but its not clear that your intent now is to refer to "GM" or "players" as the author in this latest reference. Your previous statement about games where players spend etc is a subset of indie games which have the roll able to represent success not from the perspective of a pre-defined, pre-fabbed GM menu of possibilities in that scene. That was the mistake you already made once. third, you have a marvelously limited view of my posts and even yours. no doubt that helps with whatever it is that you think you are doing. but above you say "The only difference is that I actually ask them to state what actions they're taking and what they're looking to accomplish with those actions and not just drop dice and name a line on their character sheet. " yet in the recent "I examine the altar" short list i said that none of those provided sufficient information and that i would ask them a leading question from it to move with answering it... but i did point out that the skill they were choosing provided me with some information on what they could get from that effort. now you say i haven't given examples, now you suggest the difference is between your way and "just drop dice and name a line on their character sheet. " and again go on about how you aren't at all arguing those two combined are not compatible? As for the "recently" point of your misunderstanding, from my very first post in this thread 25 pages ago... "But, if a character has done the "search action 100000 times in many different settings and had his Gm say "roll it this way" then i do not see the harm in a player saying "i search over there and my roll is..." In that example you may be able to admit several things are established. 1 - A large body of experience between player and Gm for this kind of action and resolution in their game. 2 - a statement from the character of an action being taken and even the "where" it is being taken, so no question about placement. 3 - then a statement of roll added by the player (obviously the ... is meant to cover the statement of roll result and type.) yet you come back to your current state of uncertainty... But let me be clear... In my games, FOR RESOLUTION OF A ROLL/TASK you need to tell me what your character is doing, but that does not need to include specifics as to the specific physical nature of the activity in all cases. You can say "i search over there" just like you can say "i craft a sword" or "i try and talk the bartender into free drinks" or "i examine the altar" (insufficient info there likely as it does not clarify "from where") etc and which skill you are using and i can resolve that for you. I do not require "drag my knife along the mortar seams" or "i toss blue beans into the room" for your search roll anymore than i need a blow-by-blow of the sequence you use in forging (do you roll then quench or do you flame then pound then fold - is it fasten then zip of zip then fasten MR Garibaldi.) i also do not require a specific stated goal in the vast majority of actions for two reasons 1 - "i climb the tree" will be resolved the same way... regardless of "why" you are climbing the tree. "I search over there" does not really need to know what you hope to find just what is found if anything. i can actually say that in my games the number of times characters found something completely different than what they were looking for is significant and a lot of fun. 2 - In the vast majority of cases, if there is a clearly defined goal, it is obvious in the context of the scene. "i search over there" does not pop out of the blue when they camp by the fire... it occurs in a scene that gives it context that more clearly highlioghts not only "where there is" but also "why are we searching" even if it is just "to see if there is something of note in that pile of bones" So, to be clear since you seem deadlocked and determined to see it within your goal and method rigid framework... I do not require an overt statement of goal - because goal is not needed to determine the success or failure of an action especially when player and GM both have a strong foundation of experience with resolution in the game. i do not require "method" in the way you or perhaps others describe (one example being the knife mortar thingy) as neither of us needs to attempt to portray what a skilled master at ABC does to resolve that action. As we have seen here, GMs in my experience but also on this board, seem to have widely different standards for what qualifies (for secret doors is it "dagger along mortar approach or flour along edges looking for gusts and then i will let you guess what the answer means maybe with second roll" vs for crafting "i use my forge and anvil to make... but does not seem to be a guess about whether or not you got a good sword or not?") "I climb the tree", "i pick the lock" "i search over there" along with statement of ability and proficiency is enough to give me the ability to resolve the action in the vast majority of cases and in the ones where its not, i simply ask more info along the way during the description turning the "resolution" into an interactive thing, not so much a flowchart of [state goal] [state method] [hit GM play button] with a branch for [roll needed yes-no]. ASIDE - also as stated, in the cases where players don't know the specifics, they give similar descriptions and then wait for me the GM to give them the rolls needed etc. Not unlike the normal "wait for gm" approach but still without the more overt method and goal declarations - just conversationally. For several reasons, i doubt this will help much or that we will agree on much in this overall subject at all so its good there are so many different flavors oc ice cream in this RPG buffet. Enjoy your games. [/QUOTE]
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