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<blockquote data-quote="The Crimson Binome" data-source="post: 7300409" data-attributes="member: 6775031"><p>In general, it's not. In this case, it is being used that way (even though it maybe shouldn't be). Hence the confusion.</p><p>I agree that you should be presenting the same information to the player and the character, even though it's an impossible task because the character actually <em>lives</em> in that world instead of interpreting it from second-hand description. For the sake of argument, let's assume that you're giving them all of the relevant information.</p><p></p><p>The answer that the player comes up with, based on that information, will probably be different than the answer that the character would come up with, if the relevant analytical skills of the player are different from those of the character. If you give me a description of a room and tell me to find the traps or treasure, and then give that exact same description to Batman, then Batman is likely to succeed where I would fail. Requiring the player to state an approach, rather than going straight to the dice roll, gives a huge advantage to players who are personally better at those skills.</p><p>I strongly disagree on this point. Some players are absolutely clueless about what another character may be thinking, or what might motivate them, even if the character being played should not be so clueless.</p><p>I agree that this is how 5E presents things. I'm not entirely convinced of the merit in doing so. Going back to the previous point, how would the player know to look in the drawer rather than under the rug? You're relying on the analytical skills of the player, again, rather than the character. </p><p></p><p>If I want to play some super-clever detective character who has amazing analytical powers, then even if <em>I</em> do everything possible to maximize the relevant mechanical aspects of the character, I still can't play that character unless <em>I, personally</em> am clever enough to figure out where to search. If I want to play an incredibly persuasive social character, and I do everything within my power to make them as persuasive as possible, then I still can't play that character unless <em>I, personally</em> am clever enough to pick the right approach to each conversation.</p><p></p><p>Even worse, if I <em>am</em> clever enough to pick the right approach, then the numbers on the sheet may well be irrelevant! If Batman is playing the half-orc barbarian with -1 to Investigation, and I'm playing the half-elf rogue with a minimum check result of 25, then Batman's character will automatically find the thing and my character will automatically fail. That is the significant limitation of requiring players to declare their approach, instead of just letting them roll the dice.</p><p>In the case where the approach completely obviates the die roll, because the approach is the entire difference between automatic success and automatic failure, skills are irrelevant. In the extreme case, every scenario comes down to the approach, and there's no point in even having skills in the system - the ability of the player completely overwhelms the ability of the character, to the extent that there's no point in even including the latter in the model.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The Crimson Binome, post: 7300409, member: 6775031"] In general, it's not. In this case, it is being used that way (even though it maybe shouldn't be). Hence the confusion. I agree that you should be presenting the same information to the player and the character, even though it's an impossible task because the character actually [I]lives[/I] in that world instead of interpreting it from second-hand description. For the sake of argument, let's assume that you're giving them all of the relevant information. The answer that the player comes up with, based on that information, will probably be different than the answer that the character would come up with, if the relevant analytical skills of the player are different from those of the character. If you give me a description of a room and tell me to find the traps or treasure, and then give that exact same description to Batman, then Batman is likely to succeed where I would fail. Requiring the player to state an approach, rather than going straight to the dice roll, gives a huge advantage to players who are personally better at those skills. I strongly disagree on this point. Some players are absolutely clueless about what another character may be thinking, or what might motivate them, even if the character being played should not be so clueless. I agree that this is how 5E presents things. I'm not entirely convinced of the merit in doing so. Going back to the previous point, how would the player know to look in the drawer rather than under the rug? You're relying on the analytical skills of the player, again, rather than the character. If I want to play some super-clever detective character who has amazing analytical powers, then even if [I]I[/I] do everything possible to maximize the relevant mechanical aspects of the character, I still can't play that character unless [I]I, personally[/I] am clever enough to figure out where to search. If I want to play an incredibly persuasive social character, and I do everything within my power to make them as persuasive as possible, then I still can't play that character unless [I]I, personally[/I] am clever enough to pick the right approach to each conversation. Even worse, if I [I]am[/I] clever enough to pick the right approach, then the numbers on the sheet may well be irrelevant! If Batman is playing the half-orc barbarian with -1 to Investigation, and I'm playing the half-elf rogue with a minimum check result of 25, then Batman's character will automatically find the thing and my character will automatically fail. That is the significant limitation of requiring players to declare their approach, instead of just letting them roll the dice. In the case where the approach completely obviates the die roll, because the approach is the entire difference between automatic success and automatic failure, skills are irrelevant. In the extreme case, every scenario comes down to the approach, and there's no point in even having skills in the system - the ability of the player completely overwhelms the ability of the character, to the extent that there's no point in even including the latter in the model. [/QUOTE]
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