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<blockquote data-quote="Charlaquin" data-source="post: 7300911" data-attributes="member: 6779196"><p>Careful to present the perspective you don’t agree with in the worst possible light? Yes, I do believe you were.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Both posts of mine, and if what you took away from them was “the goal is a gatekeeper for the roll” then you either completely missed the point or are specifically trying to discredit the point by putting a negative spin on it by using language like “gatekeeping” that implies a draconian DM rule.</p><p></p><p>First of all, a goal alone is not enough to determine if an action has a chance of success and a chance of failure. Both a goal and an approach are necessary. If the goal is to get to the Moon then the approach of jumping there does not have a chance of success, but the approach of taking a teleportation circle does. Second, the goal and approach are not gatekeepers, barring the players from using the mechanics until they give the right password. The process of evaluating an action’s likelihood of bringing about its goal is part of the mechanics. The dice roll is not something the player is entitled to that the DM is gating them from, it’s a top for determining outcomes of actions; one of many that are available for the DM to use at their discretion.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You’re leaving out a key part of isireth’s argument for describing actions and waiting for the DM’s call as an effective strategy. They recommend utilizing one’s understanding of the game world and the mechanics and describing an approach that seems like it will be likely to achieve the desired goal, and utilizes a Skill you have a good bonus in, so that auto-failure is lsss likely (since the action is reasonable), and if auto-success is not possible your Skills give you a good chance at succeeding the roll. Leaving this key part out is either missing isireth’s point or actively trying to make it look foolish.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It’s not inaccurate, but it is misleading, by implying that “player skill and character skill working in tandem with neither held hostage to the other” is a goal that only one side holds, when the reality is that this is what we both aim for, we just go about it in different ways. Likely in part because we have different ideas about what “player skill and character skill working in tandem” looks like.</p><p></p><p></p><p>No, you just need to stop putting a negative spin on the arguments of the perspective you don’t hold and a positive spin on the one you do. This spin is distorting either how you are reading and interpreting those arguments, or in how you are writing about them and hoping they will be interpreted. And the more this gets pointed out to you, the harder it gets to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it’s the former.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Charlaquin, post: 7300911, member: 6779196"] Careful to present the perspective you don’t agree with in the worst possible light? Yes, I do believe you were. Both posts of mine, and if what you took away from them was “the goal is a gatekeeper for the roll” then you either completely missed the point or are specifically trying to discredit the point by putting a negative spin on it by using language like “gatekeeping” that implies a draconian DM rule. First of all, a goal alone is not enough to determine if an action has a chance of success and a chance of failure. Both a goal and an approach are necessary. If the goal is to get to the Moon then the approach of jumping there does not have a chance of success, but the approach of taking a teleportation circle does. Second, the goal and approach are not gatekeepers, barring the players from using the mechanics until they give the right password. The process of evaluating an action’s likelihood of bringing about its goal is part of the mechanics. The dice roll is not something the player is entitled to that the DM is gating them from, it’s a top for determining outcomes of actions; one of many that are available for the DM to use at their discretion. You’re leaving out a key part of isireth’s argument for describing actions and waiting for the DM’s call as an effective strategy. They recommend utilizing one’s understanding of the game world and the mechanics and describing an approach that seems like it will be likely to achieve the desired goal, and utilizes a Skill you have a good bonus in, so that auto-failure is lsss likely (since the action is reasonable), and if auto-success is not possible your Skills give you a good chance at succeeding the roll. Leaving this key part out is either missing isireth’s point or actively trying to make it look foolish. It’s not inaccurate, but it is misleading, by implying that “player skill and character skill working in tandem with neither held hostage to the other” is a goal that only one side holds, when the reality is that this is what we both aim for, we just go about it in different ways. Likely in part because we have different ideas about what “player skill and character skill working in tandem” looks like. No, you just need to stop putting a negative spin on the arguments of the perspective you don’t hold and a positive spin on the one you do. This spin is distorting either how you are reading and interpreting those arguments, or in how you are writing about them and hoping they will be interpreted. And the more this gets pointed out to you, the harder it gets to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it’s the former. [/QUOTE]
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