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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 5954023" data-attributes="member: 7006"><p>The issue that I had with Surprise (and what I mentioned in my survey feedback) is that 40-60% of the time it doesn't actually <em>gain</em> you anything you weren't already going to have.</p><p></p><p>People roll high on initiative all the time, and which means they go first in a combat. Probably half a PC's fights over his career he'll go first over his enemy. So all Surprise is giving you is a <em>guarantee</em> of going first, rather than rolling a die and 50% of the time getting the same exact thing. Surprise isn't a big deal. It's like a better version of Improved Initiative... which to me is extremely lacking for something that seems like it should be a rarer and more important situation.</p><p></p><p>I look at it this way with an example of a typical situation... a ranger tries to stealth up to a guard protecting a door, making skill checks to remain in hiding. He gets up to the guard and then attacks with Surprise, meaning he goes first since the guard's initiative drops by 20. <em>But</em> because the ranger had a +4 DEX mod and the guard had a -1... chances are good that even if the ranger just WALKED up to the guard in plain sight... he was going to roll higher on initiative anyway. So all the efforts to stealth up and get Surprise gained nothing. And thus the ranger is less likely to try something cool like sneaking up on a guard if there is barely any appreciable advantage to doing so. Why go through the effort? You aren't really getting rewarded for clever play, because you're getting something you already would have had more often than not.</p><p></p><p>If Surprise granted you Advantage in addition to the -20... or perhaps an additional action (like the traditional "Surprise round" used to give you)... then Surprise would actually be an additional benefit. Whereas right now to me it really is not.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 5954023, member: 7006"] The issue that I had with Surprise (and what I mentioned in my survey feedback) is that 40-60% of the time it doesn't actually [I]gain[/I] you anything you weren't already going to have. People roll high on initiative all the time, and which means they go first in a combat. Probably half a PC's fights over his career he'll go first over his enemy. So all Surprise is giving you is a [I]guarantee[/I] of going first, rather than rolling a die and 50% of the time getting the same exact thing. Surprise isn't a big deal. It's like a better version of Improved Initiative... which to me is extremely lacking for something that seems like it should be a rarer and more important situation. I look at it this way with an example of a typical situation... a ranger tries to stealth up to a guard protecting a door, making skill checks to remain in hiding. He gets up to the guard and then attacks with Surprise, meaning he goes first since the guard's initiative drops by 20. [I]But[/I] because the ranger had a +4 DEX mod and the guard had a -1... chances are good that even if the ranger just WALKED up to the guard in plain sight... he was going to roll higher on initiative anyway. So all the efforts to stealth up and get Surprise gained nothing. And thus the ranger is less likely to try something cool like sneaking up on a guard if there is barely any appreciable advantage to doing so. Why go through the effort? You aren't really getting rewarded for clever play, because you're getting something you already would have had more often than not. If Surprise granted you Advantage in addition to the -20... or perhaps an additional action (like the traditional "Surprise round" used to give you)... then Surprise would actually be an additional benefit. Whereas right now to me it really is not. [/QUOTE]
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