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Poll : Do you allow godless clerics?
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<blockquote data-quote="tzor" data-source="post: 1219595" data-attributes="member: 12826"><p>First of all, it is difficult, if not impossible, to correctly determine or even assume that we can correctly determine the influences that made decisions in the early editions of D&D.</p><p></p><p>I think we can safely assume that everything influenced D&D and thus the cleric class in various ways, and one of those influences was the preceived view of the medieval mindset which has to by its very nature include the Catholic Church.</p><p></p><p>People were driving away vampires with crosses long before D&D so the notion of turning undead comes from culture, not per se from medieval sources. The holy water rules are clearly from glances at the Catholic Church, including the early edition notion that he who had the biggest most expensive font made the most holy water.</p><p></p><p>Of coruse early editions didn't have things like domains or anything else that would have made a deity other than a label which the cleric would invoke as a part of his preaching. The notion of clerical spells is derived from the same Vancian source as all the other spell types (cleric, druid, illusionist and wizard in AD&D) and have no relation to any preceived medieval mindset whatsoever.</p><p></p><p>Indeed one might even look at the whole situation in black and white ... literally. This is the Leiber model where evil wizards are represented by the black wizards and the good wizards, known as white wizards tend to be in the service of some deity. Leiber does derive his notion from a somewhat misunderstood notion of white magic and dark magic, a notion that was indeed discussed before the general witch craze banned all practice of preceived magic. (Herbalism was generally considered "magic" in the medieval mindset.)</p><p></p><p>Some elements in AD&D were used merely for game balance. Take the blunt weapon rule. The rule simply allows fighters to have an advantage over clerics, because swords were better than maces. Of course in the first edition, maces, morning stars and flails were hopelessly confused and confusing to many players. I know I was one who thought the "Holy Water Sprinkler" was the mace like thing that priests used to sprinkle holy water on people during Easter.</p><p></p><p>Of course little of this has a direct impact on the notion of non specific deity worshiping clerics. With a common faith for the most part being the only thing documented, it's hard to derive anything from the medieval mindset. (We tend to think of the medieval mindset as a time of a single religion, but many other faiths especially gnostic ones were also common at the time.) AD&D druids, for example are generally deity less, but they formed a strict heirarchy and had limited advancement.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tzor, post: 1219595, member: 12826"] First of all, it is difficult, if not impossible, to correctly determine or even assume that we can correctly determine the influences that made decisions in the early editions of D&D. I think we can safely assume that everything influenced D&D and thus the cleric class in various ways, and one of those influences was the preceived view of the medieval mindset which has to by its very nature include the Catholic Church. People were driving away vampires with crosses long before D&D so the notion of turning undead comes from culture, not per se from medieval sources. The holy water rules are clearly from glances at the Catholic Church, including the early edition notion that he who had the biggest most expensive font made the most holy water. Of coruse early editions didn't have things like domains or anything else that would have made a deity other than a label which the cleric would invoke as a part of his preaching. The notion of clerical spells is derived from the same Vancian source as all the other spell types (cleric, druid, illusionist and wizard in AD&D) and have no relation to any preceived medieval mindset whatsoever. Indeed one might even look at the whole situation in black and white ... literally. This is the Leiber model where evil wizards are represented by the black wizards and the good wizards, known as white wizards tend to be in the service of some deity. Leiber does derive his notion from a somewhat misunderstood notion of white magic and dark magic, a notion that was indeed discussed before the general witch craze banned all practice of preceived magic. (Herbalism was generally considered "magic" in the medieval mindset.) Some elements in AD&D were used merely for game balance. Take the blunt weapon rule. The rule simply allows fighters to have an advantage over clerics, because swords were better than maces. Of course in the first edition, maces, morning stars and flails were hopelessly confused and confusing to many players. I know I was one who thought the "Holy Water Sprinkler" was the mace like thing that priests used to sprinkle holy water on people during Easter. Of course little of this has a direct impact on the notion of non specific deity worshiping clerics. With a common faith for the most part being the only thing documented, it's hard to derive anything from the medieval mindset. (We tend to think of the medieval mindset as a time of a single religion, but many other faiths especially gnostic ones were also common at the time.) AD&D druids, for example are generally deity less, but they formed a strict heirarchy and had limited advancement. [/QUOTE]
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