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<blockquote data-quote="FreeTheSlaves" data-source="post: 4001554" data-attributes="member: 9952"><p>Thanks for the replies people. I deliberately left off replying earlier as our group are still mulling over these options and more. Still a bit more to do.</p><p></p><p>(Oh, and thanks Primitive Screwhead, my wife and I just got married in China where we've been staying with her folks. It's totally polluted but the hospitality I've experienced has been the best I've ever had. Truly outstanding. Having to come back to NZ soon. :\ ) </p><p></p><p>We're playing RttToEE and once it's finished we're moving to 4E. So we only need to deal with levels 10-14. Ironically we prefer to have minimal houserules.</p><p></p><p>**** </p><p></p><p>Primitive Screwhead </p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">2) I would suggest a modified 'Reserve Hit Points' that gives a pool of reserve points of CON stat + level. So far I have playtested this at low levels. At higher levels it might be better to use CON mod + level reserve pool that is usable after any encounter... not sure.</span></p><p>Are these hps that the character can restore to themselves after a combat?</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">5. Not sure how much faster this would make things, how much extra time does it really take?</span></p><p>What I have noticed are players (inc. self) performing calculations under their breath and it's made up of adding one grouping of dice+bonuses, and then adding another group, before combining totals. As an example one character launches empowered fireballs, and another uses a holy greatsword with power attack, and this happens almost every round of combat. The consolidation of rolls into a simpler 'roll+damage' can hopefully noticably speed up play by eliminating the many marginal delays.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">6. Do you get many uses of dispel magic? One option that would retain the area affect function would be to simply use one caster level check, and the highest DC effect beaten by this check in the area gets dispelled. </span> </p><p>Yes, we do have a lot of dispel magics firing off. Basically every intelligent foe that's heard of our characters must make steps to do this or they will get absolutely wailed on. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /> The problem with your solution is that it will still pick out one spell and possibly force a cascade of recalculations, especially if it's a stat enhancing spell.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">7. My rule changed a PA into a standard action and granted bonus dice of damage to the attack. The two cases in play so far has made me thing the boost is a bit too much.</span></p><p>The 2 players of the characters that have power attack enjoy the damage dished out by iterative attacks. Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to seeing the end of so many calculations, but that'll be a hard sell at the moment... Power attack as a standard action would be difficult to balance too. If you change every attacks +3(.5) damage to a +1d6 damage, that would work, but the consolidation of iteratives into one attack would require much more complexity...</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">9. EoM has a rule to limit active spell effects to 12. This limits magic items as well as buffs. Worked pretty good so far.</span></p><p>Thanks for the number, I didn't have a starting point before now. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> </p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">10. Easier to just rename 'nat armor' as 'armor'. That avoids the stacking AC problem.</span></p><p>That does seem the solution although there is one little issue left, that of barkskin and mage armour - which do appear in our game. The more powerful barkskin is weaker under this house rule, so I'm thinking a response could be to make mage armour a personal spell?</p><p></p><p>****</p><p></p><p>Aust Diamondew</p><p></p><p>As we’re playing RttToEE, we’ve almost reached our level cap as is. The players probably won’t want to give up these higher levels because we want the powers, just not the complexity.</p><p></p><p>House rules are a hard sell to begin with because we move forward with unanimity. Much of what I’ve suggested won’t fly and I accept that, but some will. I don’t think something like E6 or E8 will happen, but thanks for the suggestion.</p><p></p><p>****</p><p></p><p>Zelc</p><p></p><p>I agree that ditching natural armour is a big issue, due to the assumptions built into the rules. However, in our case we do not need to worry about random creatures because the dm will be using selected creatures. </p><p></p><p>For this houserule to proceed the dm-on-the-day needs to know the pc defense numbers and the creatures attack numbers, and know how they’ll likely interact. Get this wrong and a certain fan may get hit by a certain substance. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> </p><p></p><p>****</p><p></p><p>Evil Bob</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">1. Not sure I understand your idea.</span></p><p>This idea is to have (for example) the cleric take divine power three times, instead of once and have two other separate spells. The purpose of this is that it adds to the characters ‘depth’ of powers so that it: A) increases the character’s ability to chug along from encounter to encounter without need for rest, and B) it increases the players knowledge of the spell therefore reducing dependence of looking up rules while in play.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">2. Great idea: how were you going to implement it? (Also note that DMs can control this pretty well without extra rules.)</span></p><p>The implementation would just be us players agreeing to have our characters charge about longer, and our characters finding whatever in-character reason to do so, and then prepping accordingly.</p><p></p><p>What we’ve encountered is the dm can not easily control this once scry, divination, find the path and teleport are available to the party.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">3. Tricky; have you thought about just making a cleric a favored soul?</span></p><p>The player would baulk at the idea as I think it would be moving away from his character concept. Thanks for the pointer though – I’ll have a look at the spell casting progression of this class.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">6. GOD YES. </span> </p><p>I see you’ve experienced this little delight. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> </p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">7. Sure, why not? As long as the numbers are just coming out the same and the power is still there, seems fine. You could also just ask your players to pick 2-3 values of PA and only use those as well; that might do just as well with fewer changes.</span></p><p>That’s basically how I’m thinking too. Great minds and all that. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> </p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">10 - 12. This, I would avoid entirely. Taking away player AC so the DM can have more "fun" doesn't seem like you're solving the correct problem. I wouldn't specifically limit AC just to make pc’s easier to hit... Besides the fact that I have no idea how that's even possible; mid-level CRs appropriate to the players should -always- hit on their first attack - D&D is an offensively-balanced game.</span></p><p>Well the dm gets to have fun too, right? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite6" alt=":cool:" title="Cool :cool:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":cool:" /> </p><p></p><p>The current one likes to use minions and our characters have buffed ACs in the late 20s and early-to-mid 30s. The problem he’s experiencing is that in 3E the % to hit drops away rather dramatically after about 4 levels, so unless his <CR7 minion is a heavy hitter or incorporeal toucher, they’re left whistling Dixie waiting for that 20.</p><p></p><p>Basically it’s the lack of a baseline numbers problem that 3E suffers from, and I’m prepared to give a bit of my character’s AC to help shore up the problem. Your last sentence however is telling. Giving up AC for minions means that equal CR foes may need to give up some attack to maintain balance. This is not easily implemented… <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/paranoid.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":uhoh:" title="Paranoid :uhoh:" data-shortname=":uhoh:" /> </p><p></p><p></p><p>****</p><p></p><p>Thanks everyone for your initial responses. Please post if you have any other thoughts or want to examine anything more closely. I'll be monitoring this thread. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FreeTheSlaves, post: 4001554, member: 9952"] Thanks for the replies people. I deliberately left off replying earlier as our group are still mulling over these options and more. Still a bit more to do. (Oh, and thanks Primitive Screwhead, my wife and I just got married in China where we've been staying with her folks. It's totally polluted but the hospitality I've experienced has been the best I've ever had. Truly outstanding. Having to come back to NZ soon. :\ ) We're playing RttToEE and once it's finished we're moving to 4E. So we only need to deal with levels 10-14. Ironically we prefer to have minimal houserules. **** Primitive Screwhead [COLOR=Red]2) I would suggest a modified 'Reserve Hit Points' that gives a pool of reserve points of CON stat + level. So far I have playtested this at low levels. At higher levels it might be better to use CON mod + level reserve pool that is usable after any encounter... not sure.[/COLOR] Are these hps that the character can restore to themselves after a combat? [COLOR=Red]5. Not sure how much faster this would make things, how much extra time does it really take?[/COLOR] What I have noticed are players (inc. self) performing calculations under their breath and it's made up of adding one grouping of dice+bonuses, and then adding another group, before combining totals. As an example one character launches empowered fireballs, and another uses a holy greatsword with power attack, and this happens almost every round of combat. The consolidation of rolls into a simpler 'roll+damage' can hopefully noticably speed up play by eliminating the many marginal delays. [COLOR=Red]6. Do you get many uses of dispel magic? One option that would retain the area affect function would be to simply use one caster level check, and the highest DC effect beaten by this check in the area gets dispelled. [/COLOR] Yes, we do have a lot of dispel magics firing off. Basically every intelligent foe that's heard of our characters must make steps to do this or they will get absolutely wailed on. :D The problem with your solution is that it will still pick out one spell and possibly force a cascade of recalculations, especially if it's a stat enhancing spell. [COLOR=Red]7. My rule changed a PA into a standard action and granted bonus dice of damage to the attack. The two cases in play so far has made me thing the boost is a bit too much.[/COLOR] The 2 players of the characters that have power attack enjoy the damage dished out by iterative attacks. Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to seeing the end of so many calculations, but that'll be a hard sell at the moment... Power attack as a standard action would be difficult to balance too. If you change every attacks +3(.5) damage to a +1d6 damage, that would work, but the consolidation of iteratives into one attack would require much more complexity... [COLOR=Red]9. EoM has a rule to limit active spell effects to 12. This limits magic items as well as buffs. Worked pretty good so far.[/COLOR] Thanks for the number, I didn't have a starting point before now. :) [COLOR=Red]10. Easier to just rename 'nat armor' as 'armor'. That avoids the stacking AC problem.[/COLOR] That does seem the solution although there is one little issue left, that of barkskin and mage armour - which do appear in our game. The more powerful barkskin is weaker under this house rule, so I'm thinking a response could be to make mage armour a personal spell? **** Aust Diamondew As we’re playing RttToEE, we’ve almost reached our level cap as is. The players probably won’t want to give up these higher levels because we want the powers, just not the complexity. House rules are a hard sell to begin with because we move forward with unanimity. Much of what I’ve suggested won’t fly and I accept that, but some will. I don’t think something like E6 or E8 will happen, but thanks for the suggestion. **** Zelc I agree that ditching natural armour is a big issue, due to the assumptions built into the rules. However, in our case we do not need to worry about random creatures because the dm will be using selected creatures. For this houserule to proceed the dm-on-the-day needs to know the pc defense numbers and the creatures attack numbers, and know how they’ll likely interact. Get this wrong and a certain fan may get hit by a certain substance. ;) **** Evil Bob [COLOR=Red]1. Not sure I understand your idea.[/COLOR] This idea is to have (for example) the cleric take divine power three times, instead of once and have two other separate spells. The purpose of this is that it adds to the characters ‘depth’ of powers so that it: A) increases the character’s ability to chug along from encounter to encounter without need for rest, and B) it increases the players knowledge of the spell therefore reducing dependence of looking up rules while in play. [COLOR=Red]2. Great idea: how were you going to implement it? (Also note that DMs can control this pretty well without extra rules.)[/COLOR] The implementation would just be us players agreeing to have our characters charge about longer, and our characters finding whatever in-character reason to do so, and then prepping accordingly. What we’ve encountered is the dm can not easily control this once scry, divination, find the path and teleport are available to the party. [COLOR=Red]3. Tricky; have you thought about just making a cleric a favored soul?[/COLOR] The player would baulk at the idea as I think it would be moving away from his character concept. Thanks for the pointer though – I’ll have a look at the spell casting progression of this class. [COLOR=Red]6. GOD YES. [/COLOR] I see you’ve experienced this little delight. :) [COLOR=Red]7. Sure, why not? As long as the numbers are just coming out the same and the power is still there, seems fine. You could also just ask your players to pick 2-3 values of PA and only use those as well; that might do just as well with fewer changes.[/COLOR] That’s basically how I’m thinking too. Great minds and all that. ;) [COLOR=Red]10 - 12. This, I would avoid entirely. Taking away player AC so the DM can have more "fun" doesn't seem like you're solving the correct problem. I wouldn't specifically limit AC just to make pc’s easier to hit... Besides the fact that I have no idea how that's even possible; mid-level CRs appropriate to the players should -always- hit on their first attack - D&D is an offensively-balanced game.[/COLOR] Well the dm gets to have fun too, right? :cool: The current one likes to use minions and our characters have buffed ACs in the late 20s and early-to-mid 30s. The problem he’s experiencing is that in 3E the % to hit drops away rather dramatically after about 4 levels, so unless his <CR7 minion is a heavy hitter or incorporeal toucher, they’re left whistling Dixie waiting for that 20. Basically it’s the lack of a baseline numbers problem that 3E suffers from, and I’m prepared to give a bit of my character’s AC to help shore up the problem. Your last sentence however is telling. Giving up AC for minions means that equal CR foes may need to give up some attack to maintain balance. This is not easily implemented… :uhoh: **** Thanks everyone for your initial responses. Please post if you have any other thoughts or want to examine anything more closely. I'll be monitoring this thread. :) [/QUOTE]
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