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<blockquote data-quote="Puggins" data-source="post: 8078771" data-attributes="member: 12386"><p>No, d</p><p></p><p></p><p>No, let's do the math.</p><p></p><p>7th level Sorcerer with 19cha, dangerous sorcery.</p><p></p><p>DC: 10 + 7 (level) + 4 (proficiency) + 4 (charisma) = 25</p><p></p><p>Damage:</p><p></p><p>4th level Lightning Bolt: 5d12 + 4 to every opponent: 36.5 on a failed save, 18.25 on a save</p><p>3rd level Lightning Bolt: 4d12 + 3 to every opponent: 29 on a failed save, 14.5 on a save </p><p>4th level Sudden Bolt: 6d12 + 4 to one opponent: 43 on a failed save, 21.5 on a save</p><p>4th level fireball: 8d6 + 4 to every opponent: 32 on a failed save, 16 on a save</p><p>3rd level fireball 6d6 + 3 to every opponent: 24 on a failed save, 12 on a save</p><p></p><p>7th fighter with Greatsword of Striking + 1. At this point power attack is a bit of a trap against all but the truly strong foes, so we're just doing the good fighter strikes, like lunging strike or exacting strike. If you're thinking of something different, please let me know.</p><p></p><p>Bonus: +7 (level) + 6 (proficiency) + 4 (Strength) + 1 (item) = +18</p><p></p><p>Damage: 1d12 + 1d12 (striking) + 4 (strength) + 3 (weapon expertise) = 2d12 + 7 ( + 1d12 for power attack): 20 (26.5) on a hit</p><p></p><p>This is about as optimized as they come- the fighter will have the highest attack of any character and they'll be using one of the most damaging weapons possible. We can go ahead and add power attack to this, but at that point the fighter will be either attacking once after moving or twice if they can stand still. we can go over either option. My experience is that fighters generally have to move around a bit, so full rounds of attack are sorta rare. There's also the possibility of dual-handed assault with a dwarven great-axe, but that takes time to set up and I'd rather keep it somewhat vanilla, since we're not trying to do neato things with the sorcerer.</p><p></p><p>Typical 7th level monster has AC25, reflex +15. Some have lower values, some have high- they hover around here.</p><p></p><p>Fighter first attack: </p><p>without PA: 65% chance to hit (8+), 15% chance to crit (18+): 0.65 x 20 + 0.15 x 20 = 16 damage average output</p><p>with PA: same odds, 0.65 x 26.5 + 0.15 x 26.5 = 21.2 damage average output</p><p></p><p>Fighter second attack:</p><p>without PA: 40% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit: 20 X 0.4 + 20 x .05 = 9 damage average output</p><p>with PA: same odds, 0.4 x 20 + 0.05 x 20 = 9 average output</p><p></p><p>Fighter third attack:</p><p>without PA: 15% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit: 20 x 0.15 + 20 x 0.05 = 4</p><p>with PA: 0</p><p></p><p>Without PA: 16 + 9 + 4 = 29 average</p><p>WIth PA: 21.2 + 9 = 30.2 average</p><p></p><p>This is with the fighter being able to stand still and attack all three times. Again, I find this a bit rare, but hey, let's use it. If he has to move and attack then no-PA is the clear winner at 25 damage. A single strike is 16.</p><p></p><p>Sorcerer:</p><p>4th level Lightning Bolt: 55% chance to make save, 5% chance to critically succeed: 0.45 x 36.5 + 0.5 x 18.25 = 16.4 + 9.1 = 25.5 per creature</p><p>3rd level Lightning Bolt: same odds, 0.45 x 29 + 14.5 x 0.5 = 20.3 per creature</p><p>(I'm just going to print out the results for the others)</p><p>4th level sudden bolt: 30.1 average damage</p><p>4th level fireball: 22.4 average damage</p><p>3rd level fireball: 16.8 average damage</p><p></p><p>Your analysis was based on the fact that a solid hit by a fighter would do the equivalent of a fireball or lightning bolt on a monster- that's clearly not the case. You almost get there with a third level fireball, but that's not even the sorcerer's highest slot level, and the fighter's output plunges after that. So,</p><p></p><p>If a fighter unloads on one opponent, they will do 31.2 damage.</p><p></p><p>if a sorcerer hits three opponents with a 4th level fireball, they will do 67.2 damage, over two rounds of a fighter using every action to attack.</p><p>if they hit 4 opponents, like in your example, they will do 89.2 damage, almost exactly three rounds worth of fighter full attacks.</p><p></p><p>And this is assuming the fighter gets to use every attack, which they often won't. Meanwhile, the sorcerer still has an extra action to move around, use one of their few one-action spells, shoot an arrow for poor (but non-zero!) damage. If the fighter uses two actions per turn to attack then they can't touch sorcerer multi-opponent damage, and sorcerer single-opponent damage will also outpace them somewhat, but for only three round in the day.</p><p></p><p>If you can line opponents up nicely for lightning bolts it gets even better, but I don't find that a good faith argument- I'd say two opponents is very achievable, three is uncommon.</p><p></p><p>I do agree with you- concentrating damage is the way to go, but sorcerers can do that just fine- a 4th level lightning bolt might as well be the equivalent of a fighter doing a full attack on every one of its targets. I'll also point out that there are a lot more level 7 creatures that have higher than 25ac than opponents that have better than +15 reflex, and there are PLENTY of creatures whose reflex save hovers around +12 or so, which makes the sorcerer damage go through the roof (29.6 per opponent with a fireball, 33.8 with a lightning bolt).</p><p></p><p>All of this is to say that I agree with you that low level combat caster have real issues, especially at 1-2 and 5-6, but 7 is a huge, huge turn, where they definitely start pulling their weight in a big way. They don't suddenly start making martials look silly, but they do start feeling pretty powerful. By the time they get to 10th they'll have been doing really well for several levels.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Puggins, post: 8078771, member: 12386"] No, d No, let's do the math. 7th level Sorcerer with 19cha, dangerous sorcery. DC: 10 + 7 (level) + 4 (proficiency) + 4 (charisma) = 25 Damage: 4th level Lightning Bolt: 5d12 + 4 to every opponent: 36.5 on a failed save, 18.25 on a save 3rd level Lightning Bolt: 4d12 + 3 to every opponent: 29 on a failed save, 14.5 on a save 4th level Sudden Bolt: 6d12 + 4 to one opponent: 43 on a failed save, 21.5 on a save 4th level fireball: 8d6 + 4 to every opponent: 32 on a failed save, 16 on a save 3rd level fireball 6d6 + 3 to every opponent: 24 on a failed save, 12 on a save 7th fighter with Greatsword of Striking + 1. At this point power attack is a bit of a trap against all but the truly strong foes, so we're just doing the good fighter strikes, like lunging strike or exacting strike. If you're thinking of something different, please let me know. Bonus: +7 (level) + 6 (proficiency) + 4 (Strength) + 1 (item) = +18 Damage: 1d12 + 1d12 (striking) + 4 (strength) + 3 (weapon expertise) = 2d12 + 7 ( + 1d12 for power attack): 20 (26.5) on a hit This is about as optimized as they come- the fighter will have the highest attack of any character and they'll be using one of the most damaging weapons possible. We can go ahead and add power attack to this, but at that point the fighter will be either attacking once after moving or twice if they can stand still. we can go over either option. My experience is that fighters generally have to move around a bit, so full rounds of attack are sorta rare. There's also the possibility of dual-handed assault with a dwarven great-axe, but that takes time to set up and I'd rather keep it somewhat vanilla, since we're not trying to do neato things with the sorcerer. Typical 7th level monster has AC25, reflex +15. Some have lower values, some have high- they hover around here. Fighter first attack: without PA: 65% chance to hit (8+), 15% chance to crit (18+): 0.65 x 20 + 0.15 x 20 = 16 damage average output with PA: same odds, 0.65 x 26.5 + 0.15 x 26.5 = 21.2 damage average output Fighter second attack: without PA: 40% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit: 20 X 0.4 + 20 x .05 = 9 damage average output with PA: same odds, 0.4 x 20 + 0.05 x 20 = 9 average output Fighter third attack: without PA: 15% chance to hit, 5% chance to crit: 20 x 0.15 + 20 x 0.05 = 4 with PA: 0 Without PA: 16 + 9 + 4 = 29 average WIth PA: 21.2 + 9 = 30.2 average This is with the fighter being able to stand still and attack all three times. Again, I find this a bit rare, but hey, let's use it. If he has to move and attack then no-PA is the clear winner at 25 damage. A single strike is 16. Sorcerer: 4th level Lightning Bolt: 55% chance to make save, 5% chance to critically succeed: 0.45 x 36.5 + 0.5 x 18.25 = 16.4 + 9.1 = 25.5 per creature 3rd level Lightning Bolt: same odds, 0.45 x 29 + 14.5 x 0.5 = 20.3 per creature (I'm just going to print out the results for the others) 4th level sudden bolt: 30.1 average damage 4th level fireball: 22.4 average damage 3rd level fireball: 16.8 average damage Your analysis was based on the fact that a solid hit by a fighter would do the equivalent of a fireball or lightning bolt on a monster- that's clearly not the case. You almost get there with a third level fireball, but that's not even the sorcerer's highest slot level, and the fighter's output plunges after that. So, If a fighter unloads on one opponent, they will do 31.2 damage. if a sorcerer hits three opponents with a 4th level fireball, they will do 67.2 damage, over two rounds of a fighter using every action to attack. if they hit 4 opponents, like in your example, they will do 89.2 damage, almost exactly three rounds worth of fighter full attacks. And this is assuming the fighter gets to use every attack, which they often won't. Meanwhile, the sorcerer still has an extra action to move around, use one of their few one-action spells, shoot an arrow for poor (but non-zero!) damage. If the fighter uses two actions per turn to attack then they can't touch sorcerer multi-opponent damage, and sorcerer single-opponent damage will also outpace them somewhat, but for only three round in the day. If you can line opponents up nicely for lightning bolts it gets even better, but I don't find that a good faith argument- I'd say two opponents is very achievable, three is uncommon. I do agree with you- concentrating damage is the way to go, but sorcerers can do that just fine- a 4th level lightning bolt might as well be the equivalent of a fighter doing a full attack on every one of its targets. I'll also point out that there are a lot more level 7 creatures that have higher than 25ac than opponents that have better than +15 reflex, and there are PLENTY of creatures whose reflex save hovers around +12 or so, which makes the sorcerer damage go through the roof (29.6 per opponent with a fireball, 33.8 with a lightning bolt). All of this is to say that I agree with you that low level combat caster have real issues, especially at 1-2 and 5-6, but 7 is a huge, huge turn, where they definitely start pulling their weight in a big way. They don't suddenly start making martials look silly, but they do start feeling pretty powerful. By the time they get to 10th they'll have been doing really well for several levels. [/QUOTE]
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