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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 8078932" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>If you want to do the math, please do it for a <strong>Wizard</strong> and for <strong>Fireball</strong>, since that's what I've been talking about, and not some other class and spell. (I realize you chose Sorcerer because your argument kind of makes or breaks on the +6 to +12 damage for three opponents succeeding or failing their saves)</p><p></p><p>And I must unfortunately say I'm not impressed with a Fighter wasting his third action on attacking. If you feel confident about the game's rules, you would include various bonuses that mimic the use of flanking, guidance and/or intimidation, plus the little thing called "attack of opportunity".</p><p></p><p>Thank you for not blindly using Power Attack.</p><p></p><p>And conceding that Lightning Bolt is kind of a trap spell. (In my rough estimate, Fireball needs the 8d6 5E gave it just as much if not more in PF2; while Lightning Bolt, having a much worse area, could easily have gone with 12d6 precisely for the reason you mention - if you can only reliably get 66% to 50% of Fireball's targets, you need 150% or 200% of the damage. And 12d6 is 150% of 8d6 and 200% of 6d6.)</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>I maintain my view that Pathfinder 2 is alone - and wrong - about it's balancing target here, that "making damage roughly equivalent to three successful attacks is about right for a highest-level slot".</p><p></p><p>It basically enshrines that casters suck at damage, even area damage. In my view (and the view of every D&D game except PF2 and, I guess, 4E), a Wizard that expends a highest-level slot should stand a chance at either taking out a boss monster or several mooks. But even dealing 90 total damage at level 7 does not accomplish this except in corner cases. Even L-4 mooks (i.e. level 3 monsters) have 45 hit points, and so won't die even on a failed save (=meaning you have not reached the real goal of actually preventing any incoming attacks).</p><p></p><p>Sure, catch a dozen such mooks in a fireball, and you've justified the spell slot, but that happens exceptionally rarely. Much less often that you'd think if you've been playing other D&D games. In official PF2 APs "almost never" is an accurate assessment.</p><p></p><p>And since Incapacitation short-circuits the other path to greatness (single-target save or suck spells, that you invariably will want to use against exactly the monsters Incapacitation protects) you're left with precious little. You can still juggle +1's and -1's. I half-jokingly suggested the Wizard should be renamed the Accountant for a reason...</p><p></p><p>Cheers</p><p></p><p>PS. I do not want a return to d20 LFQW. I am not a Pathfinder 1 hold out.</p><p></p><p>I am, however, a fan of 5E's solution. It allows martials to shine without sucking the joy out of the magic system. At least during single-digit levels mediocre spell damage and Incapacitation makes PF2 less fun than 5E. The third main reason PF2 is less fun than 5E is its 4E-style magic items.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 8078932, member: 12731"] If you want to do the math, please do it for a [B]Wizard[/B] and for [B]Fireball[/B], since that's what I've been talking about, and not some other class and spell. (I realize you chose Sorcerer because your argument kind of makes or breaks on the +6 to +12 damage for three opponents succeeding or failing their saves) And I must unfortunately say I'm not impressed with a Fighter wasting his third action on attacking. If you feel confident about the game's rules, you would include various bonuses that mimic the use of flanking, guidance and/or intimidation, plus the little thing called "attack of opportunity". Thank you for not blindly using Power Attack. And conceding that Lightning Bolt is kind of a trap spell. (In my rough estimate, Fireball needs the 8d6 5E gave it just as much if not more in PF2; while Lightning Bolt, having a much worse area, could easily have gone with 12d6 precisely for the reason you mention - if you can only reliably get 66% to 50% of Fireball's targets, you need 150% or 200% of the damage. And 12d6 is 150% of 8d6 and 200% of 6d6.) --- I maintain my view that Pathfinder 2 is alone - and wrong - about it's balancing target here, that "making damage roughly equivalent to three successful attacks is about right for a highest-level slot". It basically enshrines that casters suck at damage, even area damage. In my view (and the view of every D&D game except PF2 and, I guess, 4E), a Wizard that expends a highest-level slot should stand a chance at either taking out a boss monster or several mooks. But even dealing 90 total damage at level 7 does not accomplish this except in corner cases. Even L-4 mooks (i.e. level 3 monsters) have 45 hit points, and so won't die even on a failed save (=meaning you have not reached the real goal of actually preventing any incoming attacks). Sure, catch a dozen such mooks in a fireball, and you've justified the spell slot, but that happens exceptionally rarely. Much less often that you'd think if you've been playing other D&D games. In official PF2 APs "almost never" is an accurate assessment. And since Incapacitation short-circuits the other path to greatness (single-target save or suck spells, that you invariably will want to use against exactly the monsters Incapacitation protects) you're left with precious little. You can still juggle +1's and -1's. I half-jokingly suggested the Wizard should be renamed the Accountant for a reason... Cheers PS. I do not want a return to d20 LFQW. I am not a Pathfinder 1 hold out. I am, however, a fan of 5E's solution. It allows martials to shine without sucking the joy out of the magic system. At least during single-digit levels mediocre spell damage and Incapacitation makes PF2 less fun than 5E. The third main reason PF2 is less fun than 5E is its 4E-style magic items. [/QUOTE]
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