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<blockquote data-quote="Puggins" data-source="post: 8079014" data-attributes="member: 12386"><p>I was using the sorcerer because I was comparing them to the apex martial class that was forgoing any semblance of defense in order to maximize damage, which I thought was already sort of going above and beyond- of the three martials in the group I'm playing with (2 fighters, 1 paladin) two use shields with long swords and one uses a great sword (and rushes in and takes a lot of dirt naps, which definitely drives his damage down). The usual number of attacks they got off at 7th level was probably around 1.5 a round, maybe a bit more- there were many rounds that involved them stepping or moving, raising a shield and hitting once (this got better at 8th level for the shield fighter), a substantially better option for survival than not bothering with defense and attacking twice.</p><p></p><p>We can certainly include flanking/intimidation, but that drops the number of attacks per round- the wizard doesn't have to worry about that. And then we should be forced to account for some factors on the wizard side, like being able to follow up a fireball with a force bolt once per combat (twice once a day). I'd sort of prefer to avoid the complication, but we can do some basic computations there.</p><p></p><p>7th level fighter with sword + shield, attacking twice and raising shield: 20.0 damage average</p><p>7th level Dragon Barbarian with Greatsword, Raging, moving once and attacking twice: 21.25 damage average</p><p>7th level wizard throwing 4th level fireball and moving once: 19.6 damage per opponent</p><p></p><p>7th level fighter with sword + shield moving into flank and attacking twice: 24.8</p><p>7th level barbarian with greatsword, raging, moving into flank and attacking twice: 26.25</p><p></p><p>7th level wizard shooting a 4th level fireball at three opponents, following up with force bolt on one: 26.6 to one, 19.6 to two.</p><p>7th level wizard shooting a lightning bolt at two opponents and following up with a force bolt: 22.8 to one, 29.8 to one</p><p>7th level wizard using 4th level sudden bolt + force bolt on one opponent: 34.3</p><p>7th level wizards using 3rd level lightning bolt on two creatures: 18.2 on both</p><p></p><p>Seriously, really not trying to skew the numbers here- 7th level is a big turning point and even the wizard (which, I agree, is at the bottom of the totem pole early on) becomes a perfectly viable damage dealer at that point, easily keeping pace with martials that have some concern for their well being.</p><p></p><p>I do have one observation- lightning bolt is not a trap. Like you said (quite rightly!) previously, concentrating damage on fewer opponents is a better option. That 7th level wizard using a 3rd level lightning bolt is still very nearly replicating a good martial's two attacks on an unflanked opponent, and they're doing it to two opponents. An evoker can do that six times a day at 7th, a universalist can do it seven times a day, if they really want to.</p><p></p><p>I do want to emphasize that I agree with your premise before 7th level- it's pretty difficult getting through those levels, it looks like. But 7th is the turning point, not 10th. Make a wizard at 7th level and you definitely won't feel like a fifth wheel.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Puggins, post: 8079014, member: 12386"] I was using the sorcerer because I was comparing them to the apex martial class that was forgoing any semblance of defense in order to maximize damage, which I thought was already sort of going above and beyond- of the three martials in the group I'm playing with (2 fighters, 1 paladin) two use shields with long swords and one uses a great sword (and rushes in and takes a lot of dirt naps, which definitely drives his damage down). The usual number of attacks they got off at 7th level was probably around 1.5 a round, maybe a bit more- there were many rounds that involved them stepping or moving, raising a shield and hitting once (this got better at 8th level for the shield fighter), a substantially better option for survival than not bothering with defense and attacking twice. We can certainly include flanking/intimidation, but that drops the number of attacks per round- the wizard doesn't have to worry about that. And then we should be forced to account for some factors on the wizard side, like being able to follow up a fireball with a force bolt once per combat (twice once a day). I'd sort of prefer to avoid the complication, but we can do some basic computations there. 7th level fighter with sword + shield, attacking twice and raising shield: 20.0 damage average 7th level Dragon Barbarian with Greatsword, Raging, moving once and attacking twice: 21.25 damage average 7th level wizard throwing 4th level fireball and moving once: 19.6 damage per opponent 7th level fighter with sword + shield moving into flank and attacking twice: 24.8 7th level barbarian with greatsword, raging, moving into flank and attacking twice: 26.25 7th level wizard shooting a 4th level fireball at three opponents, following up with force bolt on one: 26.6 to one, 19.6 to two. 7th level wizard shooting a lightning bolt at two opponents and following up with a force bolt: 22.8 to one, 29.8 to one 7th level wizard using 4th level sudden bolt + force bolt on one opponent: 34.3 7th level wizards using 3rd level lightning bolt on two creatures: 18.2 on both Seriously, really not trying to skew the numbers here- 7th level is a big turning point and even the wizard (which, I agree, is at the bottom of the totem pole early on) becomes a perfectly viable damage dealer at that point, easily keeping pace with martials that have some concern for their well being. I do have one observation- lightning bolt is not a trap. Like you said (quite rightly!) previously, concentrating damage on fewer opponents is a better option. That 7th level wizard using a 3rd level lightning bolt is still very nearly replicating a good martial's two attacks on an unflanked opponent, and they're doing it to two opponents. An evoker can do that six times a day at 7th, a universalist can do it seven times a day, if they really want to. I do want to emphasize that I agree with your premise before 7th level- it's pretty difficult getting through those levels, it looks like. But 7th is the turning point, not 10th. Make a wizard at 7th level and you definitely won't feel like a fifth wheel. [/QUOTE]
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