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<blockquote data-quote="Puggins" data-source="post: 8079128" data-attributes="member: 12386"><p>Hmm, okay, now I'm seeing the reason for the drastically improved healing options- Oh, my word, that barbarian is going to need them. they are at an overall -5 or so behind the fighter with a shield, and -7 behind the paladin. The overall damage taken by someone behind by 5 AC is dumbfounding- we're talking around 80% more damage. Behind a paladin you're getting to about 120% more damage. At that point, you'd hope that the barbarian would deal substantially more damage, because they're due for some dirt naps.</p><p></p><p>Barbarian, 10 (level) + 4 (proficiency) + 5 (strength) + 1 (attack) = +20</p><p></p><p>At this point, this attack bonus is... not great. The average AC of a level 10 monster is definitely north of 30- I'll say 31, though it might be a bit higher. The average reflex is somewhere around a +18.</p><p></p><p>Wizard, 10 (level) + 4 (proficiency) + 5 (intelligence) + 10 = DC29</p><p></p><p>The results are going to be a bit underwhelming for the barb:</p><p></p><p>Barbarian, two attacks: 0.5 * 43.5 + 0.05 * 43.5 + 0.25 * 43.5 + 0.05 * 43.5 = 37.0 average damage per round against level 10 mob</p><p>Barbarian, flanking, two attacks: 0.6 + 43.5 + 0.15 * 43.5 + 0.35 * 43.5 + 0.05 * 43.5 = 50.0 average damage per round against level 10 mob</p><p></p><p>Wizard, 5th level Cone of cold vs average mob: (12d6) = 0.5 * 42 + 0.5 * 21.0 + 0.05 * 42 = 33.6 average damage per mob</p><p>Wizard, 5th level Sudden Bolt vs average mob: (7d12) = 0.5 * 45.5 + 0.5 * 22.25 + 0.05 * 45.5 = 36.0</p><p></p><p>I'd probably stick with the cone of cold myself. The wizard at this point is hitting multiple targets for almost the same as a standard barbarian round. They don't compare to a flanking barbarian, though we're not using any tricks by the wizard, either. If you add force bolt you get to flanking damage, and the wizard can now do that multiple times a combat. I just don't see this as a huge disparity given the serious problems with the damage taken here- I'm not certain even a cleric would be able to keep up with this during a hard combat, but I've been wrong before.</p><p></p><p>I should add that you're using a really weird combination here, Capn- you're comparing a bog standard wizard to a barbarian that's optimized to deal damage, not win fights. This is close to being the most damage that can be done by a martial in the game, and it's coming at a drastic cost in terms of survivability. We're running the Age of Ashes adventure path and we've had to deal with a few level+4 encounters, surviving all of them with no casualties so far- has this group done roughly the same? The numbers look like they're dramatically different, but plug in a sword+shield fighter and you'll get drastically improved survivability with a modest drop in damage- I think that's a better comparison, honestly. I'd venture to say that (possibly) part of the inadequacy of the wizard in your campaign might be coming from the meta?</p><p></p><p>Edited to correct some very wrong numbers.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Puggins, post: 8079128, member: 12386"] Hmm, okay, now I'm seeing the reason for the drastically improved healing options- Oh, my word, that barbarian is going to need them. they are at an overall -5 or so behind the fighter with a shield, and -7 behind the paladin. The overall damage taken by someone behind by 5 AC is dumbfounding- we're talking around 80% more damage. Behind a paladin you're getting to about 120% more damage. At that point, you'd hope that the barbarian would deal substantially more damage, because they're due for some dirt naps. Barbarian, 10 (level) + 4 (proficiency) + 5 (strength) + 1 (attack) = +20 At this point, this attack bonus is... not great. The average AC of a level 10 monster is definitely north of 30- I'll say 31, though it might be a bit higher. The average reflex is somewhere around a +18. Wizard, 10 (level) + 4 (proficiency) + 5 (intelligence) + 10 = DC29 The results are going to be a bit underwhelming for the barb: Barbarian, two attacks: 0.5 * 43.5 + 0.05 * 43.5 + 0.25 * 43.5 + 0.05 * 43.5 = 37.0 average damage per round against level 10 mob Barbarian, flanking, two attacks: 0.6 + 43.5 + 0.15 * 43.5 + 0.35 * 43.5 + 0.05 * 43.5 = 50.0 average damage per round against level 10 mob Wizard, 5th level Cone of cold vs average mob: (12d6) = 0.5 * 42 + 0.5 * 21.0 + 0.05 * 42 = 33.6 average damage per mob Wizard, 5th level Sudden Bolt vs average mob: (7d12) = 0.5 * 45.5 + 0.5 * 22.25 + 0.05 * 45.5 = 36.0 I'd probably stick with the cone of cold myself. The wizard at this point is hitting multiple targets for almost the same as a standard barbarian round. They don't compare to a flanking barbarian, though we're not using any tricks by the wizard, either. If you add force bolt you get to flanking damage, and the wizard can now do that multiple times a combat. I just don't see this as a huge disparity given the serious problems with the damage taken here- I'm not certain even a cleric would be able to keep up with this during a hard combat, but I've been wrong before. I should add that you're using a really weird combination here, Capn- you're comparing a bog standard wizard to a barbarian that's optimized to deal damage, not win fights. This is close to being the most damage that can be done by a martial in the game, and it's coming at a drastic cost in terms of survivability. We're running the Age of Ashes adventure path and we've had to deal with a few level+4 encounters, surviving all of them with no casualties so far- has this group done roughly the same? The numbers look like they're dramatically different, but plug in a sword+shield fighter and you'll get drastically improved survivability with a modest drop in damage- I think that's a better comparison, honestly. I'd venture to say that (possibly) part of the inadequacy of the wizard in your campaign might be coming from the meta? Edited to correct some very wrong numbers. [/QUOTE]
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