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Power and Pathfinder Classes - Forked Thread: Pathfinder - sell me
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<blockquote data-quote="Roman" data-source="post: 4785992" data-attributes="member: 1845"><p>The hit point increases apply to both PCs and NPCs. If both PCs and NPCs are fighting each other and have twice as many hit points, everything else being equal the combat will last twice as long provided that hit points are not bypassed somehow. Obviously, the doubling of hit points does not happen in Pathfinder RPG - I just used that as an easy illustration of what I mean. Increasing the hit points by 1.5 on both sides, will increase the length of combat by 1.5 and so on.* </p><p></p><p>The hit point increases in the Pathfinder RPG are not uniform for all classes and creatures, so it is not as simple as that, but I think it shows what I meant. </p><p></p><p>*The ratio can be even greater than 1:1 depending on the supply and frequency of use of offensive abilities. </p><p></p><p>Note that even if only (or mostly) PC hit points were improved without effects on NPCs/monsters, the increased survivability does equate to increased power level in my mind and shifts the baseline. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Actually, I mostly agree with you on this one. I have explicitly chosen not to criticize the idea of a starting hit point bonus (if done right), because that is well-targeted at a real issue: low level survivability. Hit dice increases, by contrast, grant hit points over levels and are poorly targeted at helping low-level survivability.</p><p></p><p>I would change my 'mostly agree' to 'fully agree' if the hit point boost was compensated for by actually lowering the hit dice. For example, we give everybody +10 hit points at level 1, but decrease everybody's hit dice by one step. Still, even without doing that, a starting hit point bonus is something I feel generally positive towards, because it is so well targeted and does not increase with levels, thus becoming less and less significant over time. The only real objection is that a substantial number of people (myself included on occasion, though by no means in most campaigns) prefer characters to be very unsurvivable at first (level 1...). A system without bonus starting hit points supports both play styles, since those of us who prefer somewhat more survivable characters at low level can start at a slightly higher level (say level 3), but with starting hit points those who want more lethal low levels are not supported. This issue, though, is not a big one, as the starting hit points can be easily house-ruled out for those desiring increased lethality. </p><p></p><p>Indeed, luckily, a number of the changes will be easy to house rule out. I will surely get rid of the hit dice increases in my campaigns faster than you can say 'hit points', but obviously I would still prefer the hit dice increases not to happen at all. I mean depending on just how many house rules I will have to implement in other areas, a critical mass may be reached and confusion of players may ensue, so it is always best to argue for a game design that minimizes the need for house rules, though some may be inevitable. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>I think it's a bit more complex than that. After all, with more hit points spellcasters also gain tactical flexibility of being able to take more hits and thus position themselves differently, the flexibility to perhaps expend more of their limited resources on firepower rather than protection, etc. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Actually, I think we agree completely on this one. Basically, I think that making Fighters and say Rogues more similar, say by boosting Rogue hit points and BAB, but removing his sneak attack (example only - Pathfinder RPG BETA does boost Rogue hit points but not BAB and does not remove his sneak attack) would, in principle, promote balance - the more similar classes are the more balanced there will be. I would rather, however, have the Rogue keep his sneak attack, but his lower hit points and BAB, because that makes the classes more differentiated, even though the balancing of this is inevitably based on more assumptions (such as, how often the Rogue will be able to use his sneak attack on average) than if the classes were more similar. </p><p></p><p>Indeed, to extend this further (into the overall power level argument, rather than balance between classes), I am arguing that if we have to have increases to the base power level, these boosts should to be something that is more interesting than just a higher number (more hit points), as important as this 'number' may be to overall power level. I guess what I am trying to say is that hit point increases boost power level in a bland, boring way. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Thanks - I just couldn't find a better word than homogenization to fit the bill, though homogenization is obviously too strong. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Roman, post: 4785992, member: 1845"] The hit point increases apply to both PCs and NPCs. If both PCs and NPCs are fighting each other and have twice as many hit points, everything else being equal the combat will last twice as long provided that hit points are not bypassed somehow. Obviously, the doubling of hit points does not happen in Pathfinder RPG - I just used that as an easy illustration of what I mean. Increasing the hit points by 1.5 on both sides, will increase the length of combat by 1.5 and so on.* The hit point increases in the Pathfinder RPG are not uniform for all classes and creatures, so it is not as simple as that, but I think it shows what I meant. *The ratio can be even greater than 1:1 depending on the supply and frequency of use of offensive abilities. Note that even if only (or mostly) PC hit points were improved without effects on NPCs/monsters, the increased survivability does equate to increased power level in my mind and shifts the baseline. Actually, I mostly agree with you on this one. I have explicitly chosen not to criticize the idea of a starting hit point bonus (if done right), because that is well-targeted at a real issue: low level survivability. Hit dice increases, by contrast, grant hit points over levels and are poorly targeted at helping low-level survivability. I would change my 'mostly agree' to 'fully agree' if the hit point boost was compensated for by actually lowering the hit dice. For example, we give everybody +10 hit points at level 1, but decrease everybody's hit dice by one step. Still, even without doing that, a starting hit point bonus is something I feel generally positive towards, because it is so well targeted and does not increase with levels, thus becoming less and less significant over time. The only real objection is that a substantial number of people (myself included on occasion, though by no means in most campaigns) prefer characters to be very unsurvivable at first (level 1...). A system without bonus starting hit points supports both play styles, since those of us who prefer somewhat more survivable characters at low level can start at a slightly higher level (say level 3), but with starting hit points those who want more lethal low levels are not supported. This issue, though, is not a big one, as the starting hit points can be easily house-ruled out for those desiring increased lethality. Indeed, luckily, a number of the changes will be easy to house rule out. I will surely get rid of the hit dice increases in my campaigns faster than you can say 'hit points', but obviously I would still prefer the hit dice increases not to happen at all. I mean depending on just how many house rules I will have to implement in other areas, a critical mass may be reached and confusion of players may ensue, so it is always best to argue for a game design that minimizes the need for house rules, though some may be inevitable. I think it's a bit more complex than that. After all, with more hit points spellcasters also gain tactical flexibility of being able to take more hits and thus position themselves differently, the flexibility to perhaps expend more of their limited resources on firepower rather than protection, etc. Actually, I think we agree completely on this one. Basically, I think that making Fighters and say Rogues more similar, say by boosting Rogue hit points and BAB, but removing his sneak attack (example only - Pathfinder RPG BETA does boost Rogue hit points but not BAB and does not remove his sneak attack) would, in principle, promote balance - the more similar classes are the more balanced there will be. I would rather, however, have the Rogue keep his sneak attack, but his lower hit points and BAB, because that makes the classes more differentiated, even though the balancing of this is inevitably based on more assumptions (such as, how often the Rogue will be able to use his sneak attack on average) than if the classes were more similar. Indeed, to extend this further (into the overall power level argument, rather than balance between classes), I am arguing that if we have to have increases to the base power level, these boosts should to be something that is more interesting than just a higher number (more hit points), as important as this 'number' may be to overall power level. I guess what I am trying to say is that hit point increases boost power level in a bland, boring way. Thanks - I just couldn't find a better word than homogenization to fit the bill, though homogenization is obviously too strong. :) [/QUOTE]
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