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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 8870582" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p>This issue with smite spells is the overlap with the smite class ability and concentration requirements. Those spells can see more use with melee builds that cannot already smite.</p><p></p><p>A large part of the bard's identity is being a hybrid caster. Magical secrets helps but not that much. </p><p></p><p>Songs of Rest forces playstyle when Song of Rest has flavor without forcing the bard into that particular archetype. The current bard that can be built with no healing spells using Song of Rest and Countercharm has flavor without being forced into a healing bard.</p><p></p><p>The bard that can be an alternative to a cleric no longer exists. The spell access is minimal and clerics have access to so many buffs that the party multiplier bard has been replaced by the cleric. But with better armor, better weapons, and better spell access. </p><p></p><p>The cleric taking the musician feat has all those buffs, flavor, and heroic inspiration can be used more often as a better buff than bardic inspiration for many levels.</p><p></p><p>What bards should not have access to heroism or dispel magic spells by default? Breaking enchantments or curses are iconic enough abilities for bards that 3.5 bards could do it with songs and adding the bonuses in 5e made sense. These are abilities that existed in bards up until now that are gone because of the power source mechanic.</p><p></p><p>Curses (or satire) are also classic abilities from folklore and legends. So are protections spells.</p><p></p><p>Bards get denied spellcaster feats because of the expert classification.</p><p></p><p>The playtest bard does still feel like playing a bard, but it's restricted with the archetypes to which it applies. That's the issue with power sources and class group gate-keeping in how they are being applied -- we're getting forced into playstyles and archetypes whole being denied others or creativity. </p><p></p><p>One of the criticisms for sorcerers was that they are wizards with less access to spells relying on a gimmick. How is changing bards to use wizard spells while using bardic inspiration as a key class component much different?</p><p></p><p>Clerics look okay because they didn't change much. The cleric spell list is pretty much the same with a lot of additions.</p><p></p><p>The wizard and sorcerer spell lists are similar. They are largely the same with additional spells. We need to see what happens with warlocks but they might also be benefitting from additional spell access. </p><p></p><p>Feats don't need class categories. They can be listed with requirements that could be a class or class feature. </p><p></p><p>Class spell lists create class identity. Additional classes can "use the x class spell list".</p><p></p><p>This looks to me likes it's classification for the sake of classification at the expense of class identity. </p><p></p><p>Definitely don't like power sources.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 8870582, member: 6750235"] This issue with smite spells is the overlap with the smite class ability and concentration requirements. Those spells can see more use with melee builds that cannot already smite. A large part of the bard's identity is being a hybrid caster. Magical secrets helps but not that much. Songs of Rest forces playstyle when Song of Rest has flavor without forcing the bard into that particular archetype. The current bard that can be built with no healing spells using Song of Rest and Countercharm has flavor without being forced into a healing bard. The bard that can be an alternative to a cleric no longer exists. The spell access is minimal and clerics have access to so many buffs that the party multiplier bard has been replaced by the cleric. But with better armor, better weapons, and better spell access. The cleric taking the musician feat has all those buffs, flavor, and heroic inspiration can be used more often as a better buff than bardic inspiration for many levels. What bards should not have access to heroism or dispel magic spells by default? Breaking enchantments or curses are iconic enough abilities for bards that 3.5 bards could do it with songs and adding the bonuses in 5e made sense. These are abilities that existed in bards up until now that are gone because of the power source mechanic. Curses (or satire) are also classic abilities from folklore and legends. So are protections spells. Bards get denied spellcaster feats because of the expert classification. The playtest bard does still feel like playing a bard, but it's restricted with the archetypes to which it applies. That's the issue with power sources and class group gate-keeping in how they are being applied -- we're getting forced into playstyles and archetypes whole being denied others or creativity. One of the criticisms for sorcerers was that they are wizards with less access to spells relying on a gimmick. How is changing bards to use wizard spells while using bardic inspiration as a key class component much different? Clerics look okay because they didn't change much. The cleric spell list is pretty much the same with a lot of additions. The wizard and sorcerer spell lists are similar. They are largely the same with additional spells. We need to see what happens with warlocks but they might also be benefitting from additional spell access. Feats don't need class categories. They can be listed with requirements that could be a class or class feature. Class spell lists create class identity. Additional classes can "use the x class spell list". This looks to me likes it's classification for the sake of classification at the expense of class identity. Definitely don't like power sources. [/QUOTE]
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