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<blockquote data-quote="Rystil Arden" data-source="post: 3892628" data-attributes="member: 29014"><p>The Paladin Turn Undead was already a joke. In my years of playing D&D 3.X (since the day the 3.0 PH came out, as we ironically were at the end of high school in the middle of playing 2e when that happened, my mom brought over the 3.0 PH I had reserved, and we dropped everything to make a new game), I have never ever ever seen a Paladin successfully turn undead on a non-trivial encounter. This is due to the Paladin having -3 Cleric level on that Turning Check.</p><p></p><p>I would consider the Paladin without any Turn Undead (but they can keep the attempts to use for something else, they just can't turn undead) to be equivalent to the Paladin with Turn Undead, and the PrC gives them something non-worthless to use them with (and since we allow Divine Might, that's something else that they can use the Extra Turning with). Turn Undead is hardly the 'big one' for Paladins. It is, in my experience, their most worthless ability (even including Remove Disease 1/week, another stinker). </p><p></p><p>For the others, you have to consider that this is only a 5-level PrC. So the Paladin does not lose the Mount. In fact, they can't get into this PrC as a straight Paladin without already having the Mount. Their Mount just has its abilities slowed by 5 levels (heck, level 15 is the cutoff for the 15-20 bracket of Mount abilities, so the Paladin20 and the Paladin15/HolyVoice5 will have identical mounts). The loss of 5 points of damage from the main Smite that they can use once or twice a day until high levels is more than compensated by the new ability to make probably 8 or 9 more weaker Smites a day.</p><p></p><p>The skill reqs cost a lot of points, but a Paladin who wasn't taking Knowledge Religion is pretty pathetic anyway (and the hypothetical non-Holy-Voice Turn Undead Paladin who somehow turns undead is going to almost require having 5 ranks for the synergy, at least), not even knowing about their own god, and since Paladins are almost always in the thick of battle when they cast their spells, lacking Concentration is likewise foolhardy.</p><p></p><p>I'm just saying--if the Holy Voice had no prereqs at all other than Special Mounts and just said 'All 5+ Paladins welcome', you would still see most Holy Voices with nearly all those skill ranks purchased and the Extra Turning feat too.</p><p></p><p>@Trouvere--I would be sad to see this one rejected too. It seems pretty cool. I'd be happy if it changed just slightly and then was accepted.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Rystil Arden, post: 3892628, member: 29014"] The Paladin Turn Undead was already a joke. In my years of playing D&D 3.X (since the day the 3.0 PH came out, as we ironically were at the end of high school in the middle of playing 2e when that happened, my mom brought over the 3.0 PH I had reserved, and we dropped everything to make a new game), I have never ever ever seen a Paladin successfully turn undead on a non-trivial encounter. This is due to the Paladin having -3 Cleric level on that Turning Check. I would consider the Paladin without any Turn Undead (but they can keep the attempts to use for something else, they just can't turn undead) to be equivalent to the Paladin with Turn Undead, and the PrC gives them something non-worthless to use them with (and since we allow Divine Might, that's something else that they can use the Extra Turning with). Turn Undead is hardly the 'big one' for Paladins. It is, in my experience, their most worthless ability (even including Remove Disease 1/week, another stinker). For the others, you have to consider that this is only a 5-level PrC. So the Paladin does not lose the Mount. In fact, they can't get into this PrC as a straight Paladin without already having the Mount. Their Mount just has its abilities slowed by 5 levels (heck, level 15 is the cutoff for the 15-20 bracket of Mount abilities, so the Paladin20 and the Paladin15/HolyVoice5 will have identical mounts). The loss of 5 points of damage from the main Smite that they can use once or twice a day until high levels is more than compensated by the new ability to make probably 8 or 9 more weaker Smites a day. The skill reqs cost a lot of points, but a Paladin who wasn't taking Knowledge Religion is pretty pathetic anyway (and the hypothetical non-Holy-Voice Turn Undead Paladin who somehow turns undead is going to almost require having 5 ranks for the synergy, at least), not even knowing about their own god, and since Paladins are almost always in the thick of battle when they cast their spells, lacking Concentration is likewise foolhardy. I'm just saying--if the Holy Voice had no prereqs at all other than Special Mounts and just said 'All 5+ Paladins welcome', you would still see most Holy Voices with nearly all those skill ranks purchased and the Extra Turning feat too. @Trouvere--I would be sad to see this one rejected too. It seems pretty cool. I'd be happy if it changed just slightly and then was accepted. [/QUOTE]
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