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<blockquote data-quote="jim pinto" data-source="post: 4716790" data-attributes="member: 17619"><p><strong>soapboxing…</strong></p><p></p><p>I know I've covered this before in a lot of other threads, because so many problems (in my opinion) dovetail together... things are systemic. At least, I see patterns.</p><p></p><p>So. Even if I'm wrong…</p><p></p><p>Systems, designers, and gaming (in general) fail many times to take into consideration how the tool (the player's codex book you bought) is going to be used. Many publishers, don't care.</p><p></p><p>I have my reservations about those publishers… but let's not dwell.</p><p></p><p>The internet has taught me a few things about gamer behavior. Unless guided to do so through EXPLICIT examples and advice, gamers will play your new RPG the same way they play the other rpg they were just playing. For instance, some people enter gaming through Vampire and play in an event oriented manner… this happens, then this, then this. What do you do?</p><p></p><p>Dungeoncrawls play in a location-based manner. When you go here, this happens. What do you do?</p><p></p><p>Sandbox games play in a "I touch the red button. What does it do?" methodology.</p><p></p><p>Horror games play in a "I don't want to touch it. Please don't tell me what it does." style of play.</p><p></p><p>Independent of system, these games play stylistically and methodically on the precepts and assumptions of the players/GM. So, while the system itself can impact the players (allowing min-maxers to find broken combos and so on), the designers ability to convey what you can do with it is an essential ingredient. And one that is sorely overlooked in the majority of products released.</p><p></p><p>White Wolf's player's guides were always very good at this actually. But by the time these books are released, players and GMs have found their "groove" for how to play the game.</p><p></p><p>Another idea is the concept of utility. Why is this game even being made and what does it offer that game X couldn't just offer with 1 or 15 minor edits. Example: If an heroic fantasy RPG doesn't have a list of adventure plot lines that is greater than D&D's list of plotlines, why is it even being made? What can your game do that D&D can't? Are you inventing a new system because rolling a d20 bothers you?</p><p></p><p>So. There's some merit to the idea that a book or game is part of the problem. But the tools for improving any system or game are available, regardless of the players coming to the table. Sadly, you can't force people to pick up a tool and use it.</p><p></p><p>I'm engaged in a number of conversations at the moment about this topic and how it impacts the hobby, but not the industry. And because it affects our FUN, but not our ability to BUY games, you'll unlikely not see much response to the question of whether or not the game you just bought is really a game, or just a toolbox for you to figure out on your own.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="jim pinto, post: 4716790, member: 17619"] [b]soapboxing…[/b] I know I've covered this before in a lot of other threads, because so many problems (in my opinion) dovetail together... things are systemic. At least, I see patterns. So. Even if I'm wrong… Systems, designers, and gaming (in general) fail many times to take into consideration how the tool (the player's codex book you bought) is going to be used. Many publishers, don't care. I have my reservations about those publishers… but let's not dwell. The internet has taught me a few things about gamer behavior. Unless guided to do so through EXPLICIT examples and advice, gamers will play your new RPG the same way they play the other rpg they were just playing. For instance, some people enter gaming through Vampire and play in an event oriented manner… this happens, then this, then this. What do you do? Dungeoncrawls play in a location-based manner. When you go here, this happens. What do you do? Sandbox games play in a "I touch the red button. What does it do?" methodology. Horror games play in a "I don't want to touch it. Please don't tell me what it does." style of play. Independent of system, these games play stylistically and methodically on the precepts and assumptions of the players/GM. So, while the system itself can impact the players (allowing min-maxers to find broken combos and so on), the designers ability to convey what you can do with it is an essential ingredient. And one that is sorely overlooked in the majority of products released. White Wolf's player's guides were always very good at this actually. But by the time these books are released, players and GMs have found their "groove" for how to play the game. Another idea is the concept of utility. Why is this game even being made and what does it offer that game X couldn't just offer with 1 or 15 minor edits. Example: If an heroic fantasy RPG doesn't have a list of adventure plot lines that is greater than D&D's list of plotlines, why is it even being made? What can your game do that D&D can't? Are you inventing a new system because rolling a d20 bothers you? So. There's some merit to the idea that a book or game is part of the problem. But the tools for improving any system or game are available, regardless of the players coming to the table. Sadly, you can't force people to pick up a tool and use it. I'm engaged in a number of conversations at the moment about this topic and how it impacts the hobby, but not the industry. And because it affects our FUN, but not our ability to BUY games, you'll unlikely not see much response to the question of whether or not the game you just bought is really a game, or just a toolbox for you to figure out on your own. [/QUOTE]
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