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Proposal: Weapon Training Feats are not Multi-Class Feats
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<blockquote data-quote="KenHood" data-source="post: 4860579" data-attributes="member: 4413"><p>Isn't it obvious that I don't? You state an argument, I say I don't agree, and you state the argument again. Can't you understand that you've failed to convince me and let it be?</p><p> </p><p></p><p>That's not the issue, and it's a false argument because it is founded on a difference in kind. For example, were I to say that I would not permit you to drop multi-class from a multi-class feat, you would state something along the lines of "Ah! See, you don't think it's appropriate to let a character take as many multi-class feats as he wishes, therefore it is equally inappropriate to permit a character to take as many weapon training feats as he wishes."</p><p></p><p>A weapon training feat is designated multi-class as a sort of 'keyword', but that does not make it the same thing as a true multi-class feat. A multi-class involves a character learning the rudiments of another profession. (Typically, acquiring a new skill and an encounter or daily power.) A weapon training feat involves a character acquiring specialized knowledge of a single weapon, usually permitting to use said weapon as it functions in real life. (For example, bolas and nets entangle, blow guns are quiet, and garrotes choke people.)</p><p></p><p>So, please, do not attempt to obscure my proposal with a comparison between objects of different types. </p><p> </p><p></p><p>Well, I'd say that the reason a character would take a hand crossbow is that it's a simple weapon, not a superior weapon. Your character does not have to spend a feat on it.</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>Granted, I do believe that the article's rules for certain weapons is a little out of line with their capabilities in real life. </p><p></p><p>I wouldn't put 1d4 damage on a whip--maybe 1 point. Whenever I've been hit with them, they leave a nasty welt and maybe a scratch if they hit bare flesh. The type of whips that people consider lacerating to the bone, such as the cat of nine tails, tend to have glass or hooks embedded in the end. Those usually don't crack, because they don't have the 'popper' on the tip. So, that kind would inflict damage, but not distract an opponent. </p><p></p><p>A small blowgun would probably only inflict 1 point of damage as well. Typically, blowgun darts are used as a conveyance of poison. The dart itself doesn't kill the target (though you can kill small game, like a pigeon or rat with a well-placed blowgun dart). Also, the range of the blowgun is...uhm...optimistic. A blowgun's effective range tends to fit a ratio of 1 foot of distance per 1 inch of blowgun length. If the blowgun is a small weapon, comparable in length to a dagger--say one foot long--then that blowgun would have an effective range of about 12 feet. After that, the force of the needle drops off radically.</p><p></p><p>'Course, I'm one of those people that doesn't believe you should have different statistics for dagger and kukri, katana and bastard sword, long sword and broadsword, full-blade and two-handed sword. </p><p></p><p>As regards the double-weapons and spiked chain, I don't think it would 'break the game' for us to have them in L4E, though I do believe double-weapons to be a bit on the silly side, and the spiked chain is just plain crazy, about as loopy as the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urumi" target="_blank">urumi</a>, which is a self-inflicted injury waiting to happen. (However, I'm opposed to nerfing rules and content as a general practice. I think our DM's will prevent abuse, and I don't believe our players are out to take advantage of the system. Also, on the timescale and pace of PbP games, I don't see characters getting that much opportunity to expend multiple weapon proficiencies and create an uber-character. After about a year, we've got <em>one</em> level 4 character, and that's only because the player is an extremely active DM.)</p><p></p><p>Were I left to my druthers, I would go one step further and propose an elimination of weapon proficiencies in general, though I doubt anyone would support me because the majority of our understanding of weapons is based on sport, literature, or movies, not on actual usage. The general principles of melee weapons breaks down into short stick, middle stick, long stick, and cord. A knife is short stick with an edge. A mace is a middle-sized stick with a heavy weight on one end. A sword is a middle stick with an edge. And so forth. The basic movements associated with a stick apply to its edged and weighted cousins. And to strip it down even further, if you can understand the principles of wielding a simple, middle-sized stick (say 3 or 4 feet long), you can wield pretty much anything you pick up.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KenHood, post: 4860579, member: 4413"] Isn't it obvious that I don't? You state an argument, I say I don't agree, and you state the argument again. Can't you understand that you've failed to convince me and let it be? That's not the issue, and it's a false argument because it is founded on a difference in kind. For example, were I to say that I would not permit you to drop multi-class from a multi-class feat, you would state something along the lines of "Ah! See, you don't think it's appropriate to let a character take as many multi-class feats as he wishes, therefore it is equally inappropriate to permit a character to take as many weapon training feats as he wishes." A weapon training feat is designated multi-class as a sort of 'keyword', but that does not make it the same thing as a true multi-class feat. A multi-class involves a character learning the rudiments of another profession. (Typically, acquiring a new skill and an encounter or daily power.) A weapon training feat involves a character acquiring specialized knowledge of a single weapon, usually permitting to use said weapon as it functions in real life. (For example, bolas and nets entangle, blow guns are quiet, and garrotes choke people.) So, please, do not attempt to obscure my proposal with a comparison between objects of different types. Well, I'd say that the reason a character would take a hand crossbow is that it's a simple weapon, not a superior weapon. Your character does not have to spend a feat on it. --- Granted, I do believe that the article's rules for certain weapons is a little out of line with their capabilities in real life. I wouldn't put 1d4 damage on a whip--maybe 1 point. Whenever I've been hit with them, they leave a nasty welt and maybe a scratch if they hit bare flesh. The type of whips that people consider lacerating to the bone, such as the cat of nine tails, tend to have glass or hooks embedded in the end. Those usually don't crack, because they don't have the 'popper' on the tip. So, that kind would inflict damage, but not distract an opponent. A small blowgun would probably only inflict 1 point of damage as well. Typically, blowgun darts are used as a conveyance of poison. The dart itself doesn't kill the target (though you can kill small game, like a pigeon or rat with a well-placed blowgun dart). Also, the range of the blowgun is...uhm...optimistic. A blowgun's effective range tends to fit a ratio of 1 foot of distance per 1 inch of blowgun length. If the blowgun is a small weapon, comparable in length to a dagger--say one foot long--then that blowgun would have an effective range of about 12 feet. After that, the force of the needle drops off radically. 'Course, I'm one of those people that doesn't believe you should have different statistics for dagger and kukri, katana and bastard sword, long sword and broadsword, full-blade and two-handed sword. As regards the double-weapons and spiked chain, I don't think it would 'break the game' for us to have them in L4E, though I do believe double-weapons to be a bit on the silly side, and the spiked chain is just plain crazy, about as loopy as the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urumi"]urumi[/URL], which is a self-inflicted injury waiting to happen. (However, I'm opposed to nerfing rules and content as a general practice. I think our DM's will prevent abuse, and I don't believe our players are out to take advantage of the system. Also, on the timescale and pace of PbP games, I don't see characters getting that much opportunity to expend multiple weapon proficiencies and create an uber-character. After about a year, we've got [I]one[/I] level 4 character, and that's only because the player is an extremely active DM.) Were I left to my druthers, I would go one step further and propose an elimination of weapon proficiencies in general, though I doubt anyone would support me because the majority of our understanding of weapons is based on sport, literature, or movies, not on actual usage. The general principles of melee weapons breaks down into short stick, middle stick, long stick, and cord. A knife is short stick with an edge. A mace is a middle-sized stick with a heavy weight on one end. A sword is a middle stick with an edge. And so forth. The basic movements associated with a stick apply to its edged and weighted cousins. And to strip it down even further, if you can understand the principles of wielding a simple, middle-sized stick (say 3 or 4 feet long), you can wield pretty much anything you pick up. [/QUOTE]
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Proposal: Weapon Training Feats are not Multi-Class Feats
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