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Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6283379" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I agree that managing "end-game" issues in a game so strongly built around party play as D&D is a challenge both for GMs and for players. It requires the players all to exercise a degree of forbearance, and for the GM to be creative in finding ways to integrate the PCs' disparate goals and allegiances.</p><p></p><p>I discussed this at some length upthread - including in the post to which you replied. As I said, 4e's mechanical procedures of play remain largely unchanged. It is the story that progresses. Although there are some mechanical developments in paragon and epic tiers - such as the increasing mechanical complexity of PCs, invisiblity and flight as readily-available powers, more complex conditions and condition avoidance, etc - 4e's principal mode of progression is in the story rather than in the procedures of play.</p><p></p><p>That is what makes the Neverwinter campaign supplement viable - it recalibrates the Heroic-to-Paragon arc into 10 rather than 20 levels, decoupling the standard 4e mechanical progression from the standard 4e story progression. This is more viable in 4e than in 3E because PCs become rather mechanically "fleshed out" around 3rd level, and very fleshed out by 10th level. As I stated upthread, a 3rd level 4e fighter can certainly <em>feel</em> like a weapon master in play, although if you use the default monsters (rather than recalibrated monsters along the lines of Neverwinter) then that mastery will be displayed in combat with goblins and hobgoblins rather than trolls, drow and giants.</p><p></p><p>First, why is this odd? Freeing (parts of) the world from the influence of evil people is a fairly typical heroic plot line, isn't it?</p><p></p><p>The Hobbit involves freeing the people of the north from the influence of Smaug. LotR involves freeing Rohan from the influence of Saruman, then Gondor and (by implication) the rest of the world from the influence of Sauron, then the Shire from the influence of Saruman. A Wizard of Earthsea involves Ged freeing himself from the influence of his shadow. Then in Tombs of Atuan he frees Tenar from the influence of the Nameless Ones. Then in The Farthest Shore he frees the world from the influence of Cob.</p><p></p><p>Many stories fit this basic structure. That doesn't make them particularly similar. Ursula Le Guin's stories are not much like Tolkien's, for instance, except in the general sense of being fantasy adventures.</p><p></p><p>Also, what makes you say that the NPCs are nameless and faceless? I linked to a thread which indicated that the baron in question is neither nameless nor faceless. And I would have assumed that it goes without saying that the gameworld as a whole is not "nameless and faceless". Frankly this remark baffles me.</p><p></p><p>How do you envisage epic play differing from what I have described?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6283379, member: 42582"] I agree that managing "end-game" issues in a game so strongly built around party play as D&D is a challenge both for GMs and for players. It requires the players all to exercise a degree of forbearance, and for the GM to be creative in finding ways to integrate the PCs' disparate goals and allegiances. I discussed this at some length upthread - including in the post to which you replied. As I said, 4e's mechanical procedures of play remain largely unchanged. It is the story that progresses. Although there are some mechanical developments in paragon and epic tiers - such as the increasing mechanical complexity of PCs, invisiblity and flight as readily-available powers, more complex conditions and condition avoidance, etc - 4e's principal mode of progression is in the story rather than in the procedures of play. That is what makes the Neverwinter campaign supplement viable - it recalibrates the Heroic-to-Paragon arc into 10 rather than 20 levels, decoupling the standard 4e mechanical progression from the standard 4e story progression. This is more viable in 4e than in 3E because PCs become rather mechanically "fleshed out" around 3rd level, and very fleshed out by 10th level. As I stated upthread, a 3rd level 4e fighter can certainly [I]feel[/I] like a weapon master in play, although if you use the default monsters (rather than recalibrated monsters along the lines of Neverwinter) then that mastery will be displayed in combat with goblins and hobgoblins rather than trolls, drow and giants. First, why is this odd? Freeing (parts of) the world from the influence of evil people is a fairly typical heroic plot line, isn't it? The Hobbit involves freeing the people of the north from the influence of Smaug. LotR involves freeing Rohan from the influence of Saruman, then Gondor and (by implication) the rest of the world from the influence of Sauron, then the Shire from the influence of Saruman. A Wizard of Earthsea involves Ged freeing himself from the influence of his shadow. Then in Tombs of Atuan he frees Tenar from the influence of the Nameless Ones. Then in The Farthest Shore he frees the world from the influence of Cob. Many stories fit this basic structure. That doesn't make them particularly similar. Ursula Le Guin's stories are not much like Tolkien's, for instance, except in the general sense of being fantasy adventures. Also, what makes you say that the NPCs are nameless and faceless? I linked to a thread which indicated that the baron in question is neither nameless nor faceless. And I would have assumed that it goes without saying that the gameworld as a whole is not "nameless and faceless". Frankly this remark baffles me. How do you envisage epic play differing from what I have described? [/QUOTE]
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