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Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6284108" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I really have no interest in how the flavor is described. I don't think is is relevant to determining the tier of the campaign. In a simplified model of what I mean, it would have been possible using the red box basic rules to have a dungeon that was 'flavored' as by being 'outside' in that the rooms where clearings in the trees and the corridors trails in the forest floor. But this wouldn't have made it a 'Wilderness Adventure' in Expert rules set terms, because the Expert rules weren't in play. If you made the trails miles long and rooms bigger, it's still just a glorified Basic rules campaign.</p><p></p><p>If you describe the defeat of Torog as, "unleashing elemental chaos upon the world", and this just means that the next encounter is a room flavored somehow with a elemental monster, its just more dungeon crawling with flavor.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I know you don't. But we have a fundamental disagreement about what it should mean to change tiers. In 4e I believe that it means to change very little. In the same way that if you play Diablo II, the various tiers up to Hell Difficulty basically play the same with perhaps bigger numbers and a few more options, 4e has 'math that works' (or tried to at least) that keeps everything playing much the same with perhaps bigger numbers and a few more options. But fundamentally how you relate to the game doesn't change and isn't expected to.</p><p></p><p>Someone mentioned the 3.0 Wyre campaign as a good example of what epic play ought to be like. I largely agree. Some of the issues in the 3.0 Wyre campaign are: "The very definition of lawful good is changing. The PC's are to determine what the should change too.", "The setting is changing from a basically monotheistic setting, to a basically polytheistic setting. The PC's should be at the heart of determing what the new society should be like.", "The summoning school of magic is being defacto removed from all wizards on the planet." These aren't mere changes in flavor. This a total change in perspective about how the PC's relate to the game. At this point, what's at stake is basically the rules of the setting. An equivalent stake would be something like revealing, obviously more artfully than this, "You guys just killed Torog. All spells/powers with the Fire descriptor have just been removed from the abilities of all mortals everywhere. No one anywhere can use fire magic."</p><p></p><p>An equivalent situation in say the Robert Jordan books is when Rand cleanses the taint from Saidin. Suddenly, male wizards all over the world can use magic without being evil or insane. That's epic. That's meaningful. Fighting a monster with more HD is not epic.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's been a long time since I read Earthsea and I didn't like it much, but why not?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure. Social challenges and ethical issues are certainly the province of the heroic tier as well, just as the epic tier can have tactical combat.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6284108, member: 4937"] I really have no interest in how the flavor is described. I don't think is is relevant to determining the tier of the campaign. In a simplified model of what I mean, it would have been possible using the red box basic rules to have a dungeon that was 'flavored' as by being 'outside' in that the rooms where clearings in the trees and the corridors trails in the forest floor. But this wouldn't have made it a 'Wilderness Adventure' in Expert rules set terms, because the Expert rules weren't in play. If you made the trails miles long and rooms bigger, it's still just a glorified Basic rules campaign. If you describe the defeat of Torog as, "unleashing elemental chaos upon the world", and this just means that the next encounter is a room flavored somehow with a elemental monster, its just more dungeon crawling with flavor. I know you don't. But we have a fundamental disagreement about what it should mean to change tiers. In 4e I believe that it means to change very little. In the same way that if you play Diablo II, the various tiers up to Hell Difficulty basically play the same with perhaps bigger numbers and a few more options, 4e has 'math that works' (or tried to at least) that keeps everything playing much the same with perhaps bigger numbers and a few more options. But fundamentally how you relate to the game doesn't change and isn't expected to. Someone mentioned the 3.0 Wyre campaign as a good example of what epic play ought to be like. I largely agree. Some of the issues in the 3.0 Wyre campaign are: "The very definition of lawful good is changing. The PC's are to determine what the should change too.", "The setting is changing from a basically monotheistic setting, to a basically polytheistic setting. The PC's should be at the heart of determing what the new society should be like.", "The summoning school of magic is being defacto removed from all wizards on the planet." These aren't mere changes in flavor. This a total change in perspective about how the PC's relate to the game. At this point, what's at stake is basically the rules of the setting. An equivalent stake would be something like revealing, obviously more artfully than this, "You guys just killed Torog. All spells/powers with the Fire descriptor have just been removed from the abilities of all mortals everywhere. No one anywhere can use fire magic." An equivalent situation in say the Robert Jordan books is when Rand cleanses the taint from Saidin. Suddenly, male wizards all over the world can use magic without being evil or insane. That's epic. That's meaningful. Fighting a monster with more HD is not epic. It's been a long time since I read Earthsea and I didn't like it much, but why not? Sure. Social challenges and ethical issues are certainly the province of the heroic tier as well, just as the epic tier can have tactical combat. [/QUOTE]
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