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Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6284840" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>If you look at that fiction, however, much of it focuses on the personal deeds of those individuals. For instance, the King Conan stories involve a lot of personal action (I'm thinking Phoenix on the Sword, Scarlet Citadel and Hour of the Dragon) - much more of it than negotiating alliances (I don't remember any, as opposed to making personal friendships/allies), or even than leading armies (of which there is some, but even then the finale can often be personal (admittedly Black Colossus is the first thing coming to my mind, which predates King Conan in the character's timeline, but I think there are other examples).</p><p></p><p>I don't think there is any inherent conflict between a focus on the individual as the locus of action and epic scope. When Fingolfin challenge Morgoth to single combat the focus is on the individual, but Fingolfin is the bearer of the hopes of all the Noldor. I think it is epic in a way that (say) the dwarves escaping from the goblins in the Hobbit is not.</p><p></p><p>In what, sense, then are they "tiers" through which the game "moves"? This makes it just look like different subject matters of play: bureaucratic/management focused, say, vs personal action focused.</p><p></p><p>This is in almost complete contradiction to the earlier part of your post that I quoted. It can't be true both that "fundamental differences are divorced from the levels of the characters" and that "all levels being mechanically the same in resolution suggests 'more of the same with bigger numbers'". If differences are independent of level - that is, if looking at a given level's numbers doesn't tell you what is going on in the game - then noticing that the numbers are functionally equivalent at different levels can't tell you what is going on in the game either.</p><p></p><p>4e is flat maths. Bounded accuracy. The numerical scaling has signifcance only against a default Monster Manual (and trap list). But - as the Neverwinter supplement demonstrates in practice - you can descale all those numbers if you want while preserving the flavour: you just have to change your Monster Manual (Neverwinter does that - it has its own monster and NPC stats in the book).</p><p></p><p>I think you are correct about some of the purposes of 4e's flat maths. But I also think you are not paying sufficient regard to the role of paragon paths and epic destinies (and themes, introduced later, but playing a comparable sort of role at 1st level) in playing this role.</p><p></p><p>I don't follow. What system are you describing? Whose game?</p><p></p><p>Nothing in any 4e rulebook states or implies that an epic PC who runs into a burning building will suffer the same (proportionate) debilitation as would a heroic PC. In fact, the game gives the GM a whole raft of tools for making sure this is the case. (Eg at heroic tier the burning building is probably a hazard doing significant damage; at epic tier it might be difficult terrain causing 15 hp of fire damage if you end your turn in it.)</p><p></p><p>I have GMed 3 long-running fantasy RPG campaigns over the past 25 years, with no hiatus. Each has run into the epic levels. (Two in Rolemaster, one in D&D.) My players and I have experience in playing/GMing confrontatins with a wide variety of enemies, from bandits to demon lords. We can tell the difference between prosaic and epic.</p><p></p><p>You seem to be starting from a premise that everyone on this thread posting about epic play, other than you, has confused a dungeon crawl with a lick of epic-coloured paint for the real thing. Maybe you could revisit the premise - perhaps people really are running games which aren't dungeon crawls (which, perhaps, weren't even dungeon crawls at first level).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6284840, member: 42582"] If you look at that fiction, however, much of it focuses on the personal deeds of those individuals. For instance, the King Conan stories involve a lot of personal action (I'm thinking Phoenix on the Sword, Scarlet Citadel and Hour of the Dragon) - much more of it than negotiating alliances (I don't remember any, as opposed to making personal friendships/allies), or even than leading armies (of which there is some, but even then the finale can often be personal (admittedly Black Colossus is the first thing coming to my mind, which predates King Conan in the character's timeline, but I think there are other examples). I don't think there is any inherent conflict between a focus on the individual as the locus of action and epic scope. When Fingolfin challenge Morgoth to single combat the focus is on the individual, but Fingolfin is the bearer of the hopes of all the Noldor. I think it is epic in a way that (say) the dwarves escaping from the goblins in the Hobbit is not. In what, sense, then are they "tiers" through which the game "moves"? This makes it just look like different subject matters of play: bureaucratic/management focused, say, vs personal action focused. This is in almost complete contradiction to the earlier part of your post that I quoted. It can't be true both that "fundamental differences are divorced from the levels of the characters" and that "all levels being mechanically the same in resolution suggests 'more of the same with bigger numbers'". If differences are independent of level - that is, if looking at a given level's numbers doesn't tell you what is going on in the game - then noticing that the numbers are functionally equivalent at different levels can't tell you what is going on in the game either. 4e is flat maths. Bounded accuracy. The numerical scaling has signifcance only against a default Monster Manual (and trap list). But - as the Neverwinter supplement demonstrates in practice - you can descale all those numbers if you want while preserving the flavour: you just have to change your Monster Manual (Neverwinter does that - it has its own monster and NPC stats in the book). I think you are correct about some of the purposes of 4e's flat maths. But I also think you are not paying sufficient regard to the role of paragon paths and epic destinies (and themes, introduced later, but playing a comparable sort of role at 1st level) in playing this role. I don't follow. What system are you describing? Whose game? Nothing in any 4e rulebook states or implies that an epic PC who runs into a burning building will suffer the same (proportionate) debilitation as would a heroic PC. In fact, the game gives the GM a whole raft of tools for making sure this is the case. (Eg at heroic tier the burning building is probably a hazard doing significant damage; at epic tier it might be difficult terrain causing 15 hp of fire damage if you end your turn in it.) I have GMed 3 long-running fantasy RPG campaigns over the past 25 years, with no hiatus. Each has run into the epic levels. (Two in Rolemaster, one in D&D.) My players and I have experience in playing/GMing confrontatins with a wide variety of enemies, from bandits to demon lords. We can tell the difference between prosaic and epic. You seem to be starting from a premise that everyone on this thread posting about epic play, other than you, has confused a dungeon crawl with a lick of epic-coloured paint for the real thing. Maybe you could revisit the premise - perhaps people really are running games which aren't dungeon crawls (which, perhaps, weren't even dungeon crawls at first level). [/QUOTE]
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