Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6284886" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>You are of the mistaken opinion I think that my primary interest in this thread is proving something about your game. My primary interest is to explain what the pro's and con's of epic level play are. One of those 'pros' involves greater plausibility of the idea I've associated with epic play, that the PC's really have the means to meaningfully change the setting. I've also explained that I don't find any change that doesn't involve real mechanical changes particularly meaningful. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In one sense you are right. The description of the two things is flavor. But we would expect from the description that there is a mechanical difference between the two. For example, we wouldn't expect to be able to swim the gorge despite having a swim skill that permits swimming, proving that there is indeed an ingame reality behind the flavor and therefore mechanical differentiation. When that expectation is subverted, because the mechanics of interacting with the two things prove to be the same or the differences are handwaved away in order to maintain consistent mechanics, then we can say it truly is only a difference in flavor.</p><p></p><p>So when you say it is 'odd' that the mechanical process of play for resolving the mass combat between clashing armies should be different from the mechanical process of play for fording a stream, and imply that it is preferential that the two rely on the same subsystem, what I hear is that your fictional positioning is mere flavor with little or no meaningful mechanical differentiation. Indeed, what I hear further is in fact a system that is analogous not to the analog reality of a real place, but to the state based transitions used to simulate game states in a simplified computer model of a story. Now this is not to say you run a bad game or that you railroad, I've elsewhere suggested I think you run a good table. But it means I'd find your model of play very jarring, and frankly would have very low trust in your narrative based improvised process resolution.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If the logistics aren't accounted for in some manner, then the don't exist. If a rule doesn't exist for forced marches, exhaustion from travel is only color. If a rule doesn't exist for taking damage from exposure, characters don't take damage from exposure. In general, a player's experience of color that isn't backed up mechanically is very weak. His PC isn't suffering, so you can color the suffering however you like, it isn't really real to the player. I've heard some creative attempts to resolve this problem - forcing the group to go outside and play in the rain and only agreeing to go back inside when they agreed their players would in fact look for shelter from the rain - but humorous though those stories are, they aren't universal solutions. For example, I don't want to actually hold a knife to a player's loved one to get them to agree that an NPC with a knife to their throat is actually threatened. I agree with you that in game reality and real world reality need to be kept strictly separate.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Your idea thrill of gambling reminds me very much more of playing roulette or slot machines (games I detest) than poker or blood bowl (games I adore). Pull levers, see what the results are. Even when the odds are rigged in my favor, as say at a company party featuring gaming tables, I prefer the poker to the roulette.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>On that we can agree. Much more than heroic play, paragon and epic play depends on building up relationships to the rest of the game world.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6284886, member: 4937"] You are of the mistaken opinion I think that my primary interest in this thread is proving something about your game. My primary interest is to explain what the pro's and con's of epic level play are. One of those 'pros' involves greater plausibility of the idea I've associated with epic play, that the PC's really have the means to meaningfully change the setting. I've also explained that I don't find any change that doesn't involve real mechanical changes particularly meaningful. In one sense you are right. The description of the two things is flavor. But we would expect from the description that there is a mechanical difference between the two. For example, we wouldn't expect to be able to swim the gorge despite having a swim skill that permits swimming, proving that there is indeed an ingame reality behind the flavor and therefore mechanical differentiation. When that expectation is subverted, because the mechanics of interacting with the two things prove to be the same or the differences are handwaved away in order to maintain consistent mechanics, then we can say it truly is only a difference in flavor. So when you say it is 'odd' that the mechanical process of play for resolving the mass combat between clashing armies should be different from the mechanical process of play for fording a stream, and imply that it is preferential that the two rely on the same subsystem, what I hear is that your fictional positioning is mere flavor with little or no meaningful mechanical differentiation. Indeed, what I hear further is in fact a system that is analogous not to the analog reality of a real place, but to the state based transitions used to simulate game states in a simplified computer model of a story. Now this is not to say you run a bad game or that you railroad, I've elsewhere suggested I think you run a good table. But it means I'd find your model of play very jarring, and frankly would have very low trust in your narrative based improvised process resolution. If the logistics aren't accounted for in some manner, then the don't exist. If a rule doesn't exist for forced marches, exhaustion from travel is only color. If a rule doesn't exist for taking damage from exposure, characters don't take damage from exposure. In general, a player's experience of color that isn't backed up mechanically is very weak. His PC isn't suffering, so you can color the suffering however you like, it isn't really real to the player. I've heard some creative attempts to resolve this problem - forcing the group to go outside and play in the rain and only agreeing to go back inside when they agreed their players would in fact look for shelter from the rain - but humorous though those stories are, they aren't universal solutions. For example, I don't want to actually hold a knife to a player's loved one to get them to agree that an NPC with a knife to their throat is actually threatened. I agree with you that in game reality and real world reality need to be kept strictly separate. Your idea thrill of gambling reminds me very much more of playing roulette or slot machines (games I detest) than poker or blood bowl (games I adore). Pull levers, see what the results are. Even when the odds are rigged in my favor, as say at a company party featuring gaming tables, I prefer the poker to the roulette. On that we can agree. Much more than heroic play, paragon and epic play depends on building up relationships to the rest of the game world. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
Top