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Pros and Cons of going mainstream
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<blockquote data-quote="Loonook" data-source="post: 6057431" data-attributes="member: 1861"><p>You mean like Spell Cards. Which have existed since at least 2e as an option and been made by people who enjoy recipe/note cards probably since the dawn of the hobby.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And again, you don't seem to understand this topic. 3e lays out 'Here is what we think a Barbarian is." Now, I can take that and make it into several different things... And go from there. Being provided with that framework gives me a great starting point to build on... But it isn't the end-all, be-all expression of that idea.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not really. Again, there was the supplied framework and how it is played. Sure, some DMs did completely encode the entire House of Plot merchant's guild into a rogue's gallery of NPCs. Others... Didn't.</p><p></p><p>4e codified a specific framework (Solos, Elites, Minions, effects, etc.) that most of us had been playing with for years. Believing that Elder Demon Bob has a CR of 21 because he appeared in the Codex of Fiends 3: Concerning All Demonic forces named Robert... Doesn't mean that's how it played out at the table. </p><p></p><p>Again, you're showing the Ikea vs. Carpenter right here.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And part of DMing is knowing when to play with those optimal options.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That can be done... In any version of the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You realize that, your attack on the system asides, you just made the exact same point I made through my Ikea vs. carpentry argument? 4e is a series of snap into place pieces with a heavily defined mode... Just like Ikea furniture.</p><p></p><p>Also, as I have stated... People who allowed every spell in 3e in every backwood spirit caller's shack were just silly. Those of us who remember the old Spell Compendiums saw the issues... And in our group and most of the groups I have played my almost a decade of 3.x in? We gain our spells through research, learning from others, capturing spellbooks, and traveling to learn new magic. It's <em>fun for us</em> to have that separation, that thematic mean, rather than just "Oh, well, everyone takes X,Y, and Z". </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And that is a recognition of the places where 3.x doesn't work, or needs to be corraled. Strangely enough, that does require a certain amount of system knowledge and the ability to delve into it. And almost never comes into play at a table unless someone has been spending fevered nights at a CharOp board.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Or someone who has put that all together on their own.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Really? Truly I am surprised. It is almost as if you can take disparate parts of a system and put them together as a whole.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again... Not really. But if you believe that Vancian casting is an issue you can check out spell points, skill based magic, etc. You know, the things produced under that OGL to help people who don't like Vancian casting.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We used a lot of different mechanisms, from bull rushes, grapples, variant rules from OGL, to produce the concept.</p><p></p><p>Investing that time was part of the fun of it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes. Reskinning... The thing we've been discussing that is available to anyone in any game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And again, saying that doesn't make it so. Character level is a quantifiable justification for the experiences of an individual in measure to others. </p><p></p><p>Having a bunch of broken elements, which can be ignored, doesn't immediately justify ditching an entire system.</p><p></p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throw_out_the_baby_with_the_bath_water" target="_blank">I fear you did not strain your bath water. There seems to be an angry baby out your window.</a></p><p></p><p>Slainte,</p><p></p><p>-Loonook.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Loonook, post: 6057431, member: 1861"] You mean like Spell Cards. Which have existed since at least 2e as an option and been made by people who enjoy recipe/note cards probably since the dawn of the hobby. And again, you don't seem to understand this topic. 3e lays out 'Here is what we think a Barbarian is." Now, I can take that and make it into several different things... And go from there. Being provided with that framework gives me a great starting point to build on... But it isn't the end-all, be-all expression of that idea. Not really. Again, there was the supplied framework and how it is played. Sure, some DMs did completely encode the entire House of Plot merchant's guild into a rogue's gallery of NPCs. Others... Didn't. 4e codified a specific framework (Solos, Elites, Minions, effects, etc.) that most of us had been playing with for years. Believing that Elder Demon Bob has a CR of 21 because he appeared in the Codex of Fiends 3: Concerning All Demonic forces named Robert... Doesn't mean that's how it played out at the table. Again, you're showing the Ikea vs. Carpenter right here. And part of DMing is knowing when to play with those optimal options. That can be done... In any version of the game. You realize that, your attack on the system asides, you just made the exact same point I made through my Ikea vs. carpentry argument? 4e is a series of snap into place pieces with a heavily defined mode... Just like Ikea furniture. Also, as I have stated... People who allowed every spell in 3e in every backwood spirit caller's shack were just silly. Those of us who remember the old Spell Compendiums saw the issues... And in our group and most of the groups I have played my almost a decade of 3.x in? We gain our spells through research, learning from others, capturing spellbooks, and traveling to learn new magic. It's [I]fun for us[/I] to have that separation, that thematic mean, rather than just "Oh, well, everyone takes X,Y, and Z". And that is a recognition of the places where 3.x doesn't work, or needs to be corraled. Strangely enough, that does require a certain amount of system knowledge and the ability to delve into it. And almost never comes into play at a table unless someone has been spending fevered nights at a CharOp board. Or someone who has put that all together on their own. Really? Truly I am surprised. It is almost as if you can take disparate parts of a system and put them together as a whole. Again... Not really. But if you believe that Vancian casting is an issue you can check out spell points, skill based magic, etc. You know, the things produced under that OGL to help people who don't like Vancian casting. We used a lot of different mechanisms, from bull rushes, grapples, variant rules from OGL, to produce the concept. Investing that time was part of the fun of it. Yes. Reskinning... The thing we've been discussing that is available to anyone in any game. And again, saying that doesn't make it so. Character level is a quantifiable justification for the experiences of an individual in measure to others. Having a bunch of broken elements, which can be ignored, doesn't immediately justify ditching an entire system. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throw_out_the_baby_with_the_bath_water"]I fear you did not strain your bath water. There seems to be an angry baby out your window.[/URL] Slainte, -Loonook. [/QUOTE]
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