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<blockquote data-quote="Bedrockgames" data-source="post: 5901825" data-attributes="member: 85555"><p>No one is saying pathfinder outsold D&D, just that it is competing against it and 4e was less of a success than anticipated.</p><p></p><p>I think this is very wishful thinking. This probably isn't the place to rehash the old 4e sales debate. But saying 3.5 and 5e are at all equivelant just doesn't hold for me. In fact it was clearly given the .5 designation because it was little more than a tune up designed to sell more books. The edition itself was popular and being played, but they wanted to squeeze more profit out of the line (and by all accounts I have seen 3.5 was planned from a very early stage). </p><p></p><p>You can't ignore pathfinder. It is a huge success. It is arguable challenging D&D's superiority. The last time anything like this occured was when White Wolf emerged in the 90s. You can cut the evidence up however you like. In my mind there is too much evidence at this point to say 4E was a commercial success or that 5e isn't coming early because of 4e's performance and pathfinder's ascendance. I don't have that much inside information (i am sure morrus has more than me) but from my little nook of the world as a small publisher I hear from people all the time that 4e hasn't been doing as well as expected. I also kept hearing that their efforts to stem the bleeding with stuff like essentials just made the problem worse by splitting the customer base further and confusing new potential customers (mostly this was from store owners). I think they they got rid of Slavicsek and Heinsoo, then the pathdfinder numbers came out, and finally the announcement of 5E, it was pretty clear what was going on.</p><p></p><p> I will also say I was skeptical of this concusion for a while. It wasn't until they let go of slavicsek that I started to think 4e wasn't a success (i believe morrus was equally cautious up to about the time 5e itself was announced---his posts on the pathfinder sales versus 4e sales certainly seemed to indicate that). I was no fan of 4e but I didn't begrudge it its success. And frankly the fact that it isn't succesful bodes ill for what I want: a return to something more like 2E or 3E. Sure, 4e's failure means they will try to go back to some earlier recipes, but the heavy split also means the next iteration of the game could be equally short lived. So it isn't like I just really want 4e to fail and am trying to push that conclusion on the evidence. I genuined think the evidence is very clear at this stage.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bedrockgames, post: 5901825, member: 85555"] No one is saying pathfinder outsold D&D, just that it is competing against it and 4e was less of a success than anticipated. I think this is very wishful thinking. This probably isn't the place to rehash the old 4e sales debate. But saying 3.5 and 5e are at all equivelant just doesn't hold for me. In fact it was clearly given the .5 designation because it was little more than a tune up designed to sell more books. The edition itself was popular and being played, but they wanted to squeeze more profit out of the line (and by all accounts I have seen 3.5 was planned from a very early stage). You can't ignore pathfinder. It is a huge success. It is arguable challenging D&D's superiority. The last time anything like this occured was when White Wolf emerged in the 90s. You can cut the evidence up however you like. In my mind there is too much evidence at this point to say 4E was a commercial success or that 5e isn't coming early because of 4e's performance and pathfinder's ascendance. I don't have that much inside information (i am sure morrus has more than me) but from my little nook of the world as a small publisher I hear from people all the time that 4e hasn't been doing as well as expected. I also kept hearing that their efforts to stem the bleeding with stuff like essentials just made the problem worse by splitting the customer base further and confusing new potential customers (mostly this was from store owners). I think they they got rid of Slavicsek and Heinsoo, then the pathdfinder numbers came out, and finally the announcement of 5E, it was pretty clear what was going on. I will also say I was skeptical of this concusion for a while. It wasn't until they let go of slavicsek that I started to think 4e wasn't a success (i believe morrus was equally cautious up to about the time 5e itself was announced---his posts on the pathfinder sales versus 4e sales certainly seemed to indicate that). I was no fan of 4e but I didn't begrudge it its success. And frankly the fact that it isn't succesful bodes ill for what I want: a return to something more like 2E or 3E. Sure, 4e's failure means they will try to go back to some earlier recipes, but the heavy split also means the next iteration of the game could be equally short lived. So it isn't like I just really want 4e to fail and am trying to push that conclusion on the evidence. I genuined think the evidence is very clear at this stage. [/QUOTE]
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