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<blockquote data-quote="Fallstorm" data-source="post: 5903710" data-attributes="member: 55683"><p>No, it has not always been the fluff that made DnD. Yes, the rules have changed between each edition of DnD but there have been those people who have always looked at the rules in each edition of the game and thought of various ways to implement those rules those rules at it applies to their game and their character. Immersion in the various settings has also been a tradition of the game, and I will not argue against that but the "crunch" factor has always been a magnet as well perhaps for some more than others, but then one can say the same about Deep Immersion role-playing, and if you really want to go back to the roots of DnD the game grew out of wargaming, which is rules and tactics based and even Gygax himself in an old Dragon magazine article entitled "Up on a Soap Box Role Vs. "Roll" playing" went on a spiel talking about the wargaming roots of DnD and how those gamers who derided rules lawyers, etc had it wrong because he never intended DnD to be a game of what he dubbed "amateur thespianism." So, in that regards if we look at how DnD over the years has become more tactical i.e., Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventure introduces new proficiency mechanics to the game, the 2E making NWP vs WP core and using multiattacks via fighters and then amping it up further via the 2E Player's Option line of books and finally leading to 3rd edition (and 3.5) that was heavy into tactics and now 4E which is even more tactics driven one can argue that DnD has in many ways gone back to its roots.</p><p> </p><p>The OP has said this article isn't about crunch vs. fluff but really the presentation of the two but I felt a need to respond to your ideal that fluff is the core essentially of the game. Still, I think crunch and fluff can be presented in a way that will appeal to the majority of the people and Klaus and Warunsun (in post 83) earlier presented examples that I (who prefers the 4E style of presentation in DnD) would be willing to compromise to regarding my taste in for the game. I think it is true that 5E will not appeal to people who are unwilling to compromise at all ,like if someone claims the rules must be presented in 2E style or nothing at all for them to buy it (I mean there's no room to maneuver there), so of course it will fail to appeal to them, but then again those people probably aren't playing DnD or Pathfinder for that manner now so in some ways it is a non-sequiter if they don't buy the game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fallstorm, post: 5903710, member: 55683"] No, it has not always been the fluff that made DnD. Yes, the rules have changed between each edition of DnD but there have been those people who have always looked at the rules in each edition of the game and thought of various ways to implement those rules those rules at it applies to their game and their character. Immersion in the various settings has also been a tradition of the game, and I will not argue against that but the "crunch" factor has always been a magnet as well perhaps for some more than others, but then one can say the same about Deep Immersion role-playing, and if you really want to go back to the roots of DnD the game grew out of wargaming, which is rules and tactics based and even Gygax himself in an old Dragon magazine article entitled "Up on a Soap Box Role Vs. "Roll" playing" went on a spiel talking about the wargaming roots of DnD and how those gamers who derided rules lawyers, etc had it wrong because he never intended DnD to be a game of what he dubbed "amateur thespianism." So, in that regards if we look at how DnD over the years has become more tactical i.e., Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventure introduces new proficiency mechanics to the game, the 2E making NWP vs WP core and using multiattacks via fighters and then amping it up further via the 2E Player's Option line of books and finally leading to 3rd edition (and 3.5) that was heavy into tactics and now 4E which is even more tactics driven one can argue that DnD has in many ways gone back to its roots. The OP has said this article isn't about crunch vs. fluff but really the presentation of the two but I felt a need to respond to your ideal that fluff is the core essentially of the game. Still, I think crunch and fluff can be presented in a way that will appeal to the majority of the people and Klaus and Warunsun (in post 83) earlier presented examples that I (who prefers the 4E style of presentation in DnD) would be willing to compromise to regarding my taste in for the game. I think it is true that 5E will not appeal to people who are unwilling to compromise at all ,like if someone claims the rules must be presented in 2E style or nothing at all for them to buy it (I mean there's no room to maneuver there), so of course it will fail to appeal to them, but then again those people probably aren't playing DnD or Pathfinder for that manner now so in some ways it is a non-sequiter if they don't buy the game. [/QUOTE]
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